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November 06, 2007

Brezec might not play tonight

      Two quick updates off Tuesday's morning shootaround:

  • Center Primoz Brezec might not play tonight, due to a sprained right wrist suffered against Miami. If Brezec can't start, coach Sam Vincent will start either center Ryan Hollins or guard Jeff McInnis.       Using McInnis would mean starting the smaller lineup that Vincent has used to close out wins in the first two games. Regardless of whether he starts, McInnis figures to play a lot tonight to match up with the Suns' small, up-tempo style of play.
  • Vincent is playing three of his starters -- Raymond Felton, Gerald Wallace and Jason Richardson -- 40 minutes or more per game, and Emeka Okafor is close at 38 per game. Vincent knows that can't last all season -- he'll burn them out -- but he says for now, it's essential to a fast start.   The Bobcats must have a productive November and December, because they play 26 of their last 41 on the road this season, due to all the college basketball in the arena in February and March. The only other team in the league with three players averaging 40 or more minutes is Boston (Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen).

Posted by rbonnell on November 6, 2007 at 12:08 PM | Permalink

Comments

To start McInnis at the PG in ofense and SG in defense is not a bad idea. I think a defensive matchup of: Felton, McInnis, Richardson, Wallace & Okafor V.S. Nash, Bell, Hill, Marion & Amare/Diaw, doesn't look bad, actually I think it will be better. You can also count on Carroll, Dudley and Hermann to provide some support in the 2,3 & 4 position respectively. Hermann can even help in the 5 spot if Diaw starts at Center. Hollins and Jermareo should be helpfull since this game is more about athleticism and not that much about strength. NOTE: I'm not saying the Sun's are not strong, I'm just saying that the advantage in muscle and body size is not a huge one. If the Bobcats can repeat the consistency they had in the 2nd & 3rd Qtr. vs Miami, and they manage to keep it in the 4th, they might surprise us with a 3-0.

Posted by: RobC | Nov 6, 2007 1:28:21 PM

I think the 40 minutes plus for the starters is showing in their slowed production and poor shooting in the 4th quarters of both games. I can't understand why Vincent's playing them that much with the bench players we have. Carrol, Hermann and Dudley are as good a bench as you can find in the league. Hermann is possibly 15-22 points just sitting. Even Hollins has looked decent. Carroll is struggling a little with his shot but he'll only get out of his funk by playing. I don't get it. It may catch up to us tonight against a team that plays 90 miles an hour for all 48 minutes.

Posted by: SuperLucChic | Nov 6, 2007 3:47:49 PM

defense.

Posted by: spectre | Nov 6, 2007 3:48:48 PM

I have never understood people liking carroll that much or kapono. They don't do anything besides hit threes and carroll can't even do that now.

Don't put him in.

Posted by: Bonnell=Greatest Reporter Ever! | Nov 6, 2007 4:54:58 PM

That's ridiculous...Matt Carroll's slashing and driving skills are VASTLY underrated. He drew fouls and free throws at the 4th-highest rate on the team last year, ahead of VAUNTED slasher Ray Felton. In addition, you can count on Carroll not to brick free throws in crucial situations, as most every Bobcat did on opening night.

Posted by: Michael Procton | Nov 6, 2007 7:10:44 PM

Hmm...so curious, to see Felton struggle the first time this season we've played against a team with a legitimate point guard. 2-7 shooting, 1 assist against 3 turnovers? He's really showing me the light.

Posted by: Michael Procton | Nov 6, 2007 8:24:31 PM

There goes our undefeated season. We really sucked tonight. It didn't look like there were over 5,000 people in the stands tonight. Oh well there were some signs showing Steve Nash some love.

Posted by: WILL | Nov 6, 2007 10:25:38 PM

Procton, you're a joke. Did the guy impregnate your sister or something? There is NOTHING rational about the grudge you have and the way you revel in his downfalls while begrudging his success.

Posted by: jperry | Nov 6, 2007 10:51:01 PM

There's as much rationality behind hating Felton as there is behind hating May, or Morrison, or Knight back when he was here, or Brezec, etc.

Only difference is, he's supposed to play a bigger role on our team than those other players, and he has pretty much disappointed his entire career.

He doesn't make the players around him better. That's evidenced by our drought against the Heat in the 4th quarter, and by what happened tonight. It was the same issue we had last year when Felton first took over for Knight, and we posted one of the worst stretches in our entire existence, getting blown out by like 20+, several games in a row.

He doesn't know how to make players around him better. He doesn't know how to stem the tide when a team goes on a run like that, and we're struggling to score. He doesn't have control over the offense the way many of the better PGs do. Even when he played well the first two games, it was due to his own offense, not how he was setting up others. He'll get assists, especially with some of the scorers we have...all he has to do is pass it to them and they'll score sooner or later.

But when has he made a team mate better? When has he made it easier on them? When has he made a pass that made you go, "wow," the same way a lot of the better PGs do several times each game?

He would make a good offensive-minded combo guard off the bench, assuming he could play well off the bench, something he never did his rookie season (it was like he only "got up" when he was starting). But I just don't know that he will ever "get it" as a starting PG.

When our team goes cold, what can he do to make us better? Apparently after watching all the blowouts last season, and tonight, the answer is...nothing.

Posted by: Will | Nov 6, 2007 11:42:03 PM

Wow...strong words, Will, and maybe your eyeball approach will make an impact that my analytical stats can't. Who thought we'd ever agree on anything?

Posted by: Michael Procton | Nov 7, 2007 1:56:08 AM

Oh, wow...while trying to reconcile the notion that Ray Felton has so far had a career that has statistically mirrored Phil Ford, Kelvin Ransey, and Mookie Blaylock, I found a fun new stat I've never seen before: Player Losses. Player losses is an estimate of the number of losses produced by a player for his team. Last year, Felton led the league with 9.7 (granted, this was against 2.4 player wins.) To compare, this number had him ranked with such winners as Desmond Mason, Eddy Curry, and Josh Smith. In addition, his .198 win percentage suggests that he was among the players dragging the team down, not increasing its success. Players on the Bobcats who were able to post a positive player win% included: Gerald Wallace, Emeka Okafor, Matt Carroll, Walter Herrmann, Derek Anderson, and hell, even SEAN MAY! Even the hated Brevin Knight was able to win at a 34% personal win clip. You don't have to understand the stat to know that 20% (or 16 wins over the course of a season) is not the kind of rate we want to have our PG lead the team at. He's still affordable, so maybe we can get some value for him between now and next year. Like I've said, I believe this team can make the playoffs in spite of the play of Raymond Felton, and maybe even get homecourt in the first round with a division championship (stating that the division is weak is not a backhanded compliment, it's merely a factual statement.) They will not, however, make the leap to championship contenders until they get a point guard who realizes that his job is to set his teammates up and make them better, not to shoot first pass only when he can make a highlight reel and impress the front-row boys in their powder blue sweater vests sipping on their chardonnay and nibbling on some brie.

Posted by: Michael Procton | Nov 7, 2007 2:56:16 AM

Okay, so Felton sucked last night. The bottom line is, with the way the 'Cats have set it up, that as Felton goes, so go the Bobcats. But last night's game shouldn't be seen as indicative of how good/bad the 'Cats are. Okafor had ZERO points. Wallace and Richardson shot 4-11. Our Big Four all stunk it up royally last night- not going to happen very often.

On the bright side, Dudley came in and looked marvelous. This guy realy has some game and his play last night, 16 pts and 11 rebs in under 20 minutes, is the first evidence of his versatility. This is a guy who can hold his own at the three AND the four. And while Davidson's shooting numbers weren't that great, he looked good (And big, long, and surprisingly quick). With Wallace and Richardson taking care of most of the scoring load and Okafor anchoring a frontcourt that includes Davidson, Herrman, and Dudley (Can we PLEASE get rid of Brezec, he doesn't even know how to plant his pivot foot for God's sake), the Bobcats are in no shortage of skilled players.

If we make the playoffs, it will be because of the play of Raymond Felton. Yes Will and Procton, he's been inconsistent at best up until this point. Just one question. If he does have a good season and we make the playoffs, will you still hate him?

Posted by: BustaCat | Nov 7, 2007 11:38:22 AM

Yes, the "big three" stunk it up...and what did Felton do to help them out? What did he do to help the team overcame their offensive woes? How did he make it easier on them, seeing as how they were struggling offensively?

THAT'S what a good PG does. Like I said, when is the last time Felton made a pass that made you go "wow, how did he see that?" Almost never?

With some luck, we could make the playoffs with Felton being our starting PG, playing the way he does, assuming nights like last night (and the 4th quarter in Miami) are few and faaaaaaaaaaaaar between for our "big three."

Posted by: Will | Nov 7, 2007 11:50:34 AM

I'm actually not even going to go back into the arguments of the past, as much as I have done in the past with Procton ad nauseum. I actually wanted to back off the impregnate your sister thing (not that you care), as it's not my style. I probably will simply watch the games and make comments related to Bonnell's comments as the past is done and the beliefs that MOST of us have about the past will remain constant. Making every game a memorandum on a guy doesn't make sense either way as the Bobcats have loss plenty (including forgotten blowouts) for Felton was starting pg and since. Mike, I can say I am glad you found a new stat to play with.

My current concern is watching the development of the Bobcats, Vincent, and Raymond Felton. I would like for them all to have a positive ascension. You can approach it however you like. At this point all I know is that I am happy the MRI's were negative on the CHEAP SHOT Nash took in blatantly tripping him because of his own frustration.

Bustacat, your question at the end is rhetorical I hope. Will and Michael have set up scenarios where they will be "right" regardless of what happens. In other words, if the Bobcats and Felton succeed, it is because a) the division is weak, b) they were able to overcome his play (although we would be 0-3 without it currently), and c) there will be a way of spinning things to say that it was all about Okafor, Wallace, and J-Rich alone.

Although, someone might want to give Gerald the memo on Felton's value. He's not saying what he's supposed to.

Posted by: jperry | Nov 7, 2007 12:44:45 PM

Bustacat,

I agree on the Dudley thing. When he was drafted, I said he felt like May insurance. He does not have the bulk but rebounds well and has the similar pick and pop skill set if he can play a 4 for us. This gives us another guy who isn't scared to mix it up, but also can keep the lane clear for Okafor to work down low, as well as Gerald, J-Rich, and Felton on drives.

I know people do not want to not consider Okafor a 5, but in today's NBA that's what he is. He has a quickness advantage on the 5s and if we could get some play out of Dudley at the 4 with Okafor at the 5, we would potentially have our best combination of speed, skill, and rebounding on the floor. I would like to see what he can do as time goes with the first unit.

Posted by: jperry | Nov 7, 2007 12:48:52 PM

And you've set up a scenario where Felton will be "successful" regardless whether it's true or not, ie, if we get to the playoffs it's apparently all due to Felton, and not the "big three."

If we make it to the playoffs, and Felton doesn't suddenly "get it" and learn the things he's failed to learn over the past few years, it will be in spite of him, not because of him. It won't be because he took us to another level, it will be he just didn't drag us down as much as he could have.

Again, point out where something I said was wrong. Even the biggest Felton backers...do you really think Felton makes his team mates better? You can argue that we may be more successful with him starting, but can you really argue that he makes his team mates BETTER? That he makes it easier on them? That he runs a fluid offense?

You can go on and on. He doesn't do what you would expect a really successful starting PG to do. And I wouldn't care if he came into the league not knowing how to do that stuff...the problem is, after being in the league for several years, getting every opportunity to learn...he still doesn't "get it."

Posted by: Will | Nov 7, 2007 1:16:02 PM

Where did I set up such scenario? I THINK that we need Felton to be ONE of the components to help us get to where we need to. So do Gerald Wallace, Sam Vincent, and the other guys. I don't think we can sustain anymore significant injuries and reach our goals. I consider Felton a significant injury. If you don't agree, that's your opinion with which I respectfully disagree.

The reason why some of the argument between us is pointless is b/c we disagree about his situation in the past. It's an agree to disagree scenario, as I SINCERELY would like to watch the future of the Bobcats. My only question is are you saying that your opinion will never change on Felton and the Bobcats?

I'm not saying mine never will. I just would like to watch him in the situation with the current coach and system and see how things play out. If given time in the system he is not able to grow then maybe he will show to be better in a different situation or not a fit. However, if all pgs were judged as he has been as not having it already, the league would be short SEVERAL pgs, potentially including the guy who put the drop toe hold on him last night. Paul and Williams' transition is the exception, not the rule.

I actually think Felton does make his team and teammates better (some of his best assist nights and wins have come without some of our best players playing throughout, if at all). BUT, I agree he has work to do with in the halfcourt setting. I'd like to see how he responds to having the full connection with his coach and coach's system while having the chance to develop chemistry with his teammates plays out.

I don't call the guy perfect, but this notion of him being garbage (not your particular words) or a career backup is no more accurate than calling him perfect at this point in his career. I think he is a tough young pg, finally playing in a situation that he is more suited for who will hopefully develop into the franchises pg. I just would like to watch the season unfold without EVERY game positive or negative serving as a memorandum of his worthiness.

Posted by: jperry | Nov 7, 2007 1:49:59 PM

My opinion would change if he got better, and learns how to run a competent offense, and makes his team mates BETTER -- which, no, right now he doesn't do.

I didn't call him garbage, and I didn't call him a career backup. On a good team, a true championship contending team, he could probably fill the role of an offensive-minded combo guard off the bench, and be an asset in that position. But I don't see him being the starting PG on a championship caliber team, not with the way he's played his first few years.

Right now, what he provides, A LOT of PGs in the league could provide, and probably do so more efficiently.

Posted by: Will | Nov 7, 2007 2:01:29 PM

The fact is that Felton has gotten off to a really great start. Yes, he struggled against the Suns, but the whole team struggled. One can imagine that if Okafor were hitting or Wallace and Richardson were stroking their jumpers, Felton's numbers would have been a lot better last night.

Again, I agree that Felton has been inconsistent at best in his first two seasons, but so far this year he's shooting 45%, 55% from three, 78% from the line, with 7.3 assists/game, 1.3 steals and 3.67 TOs. That's markedly better than he's done before. I'm excited, not convinced, but excited. And while he ceratinly has room to improve (turnovers especially), if his early play is any judge he is improving.

So if you don't like Felton, just say it. But surely the real fans (not the racists) on this blog can at least understand why some of us would be quick to defend our point guard (Cause we all know he is IT, McInnis and Anderson are no solution, not even a decent Plan B)

Posted by: BustaCat | Nov 7, 2007 2:50:40 PM

Definetly Dudley proved he is a hustler down the post, he can score, rebound and guard. I think we should give a chance for a lineup that includes: Felton, J-Rich, G-Force, Dudley and Okafor.

It will be a small lineup?, YES, but way better and more effective than what we've seen now. McInnis, Carroll, Hermann & Hollins should be rotated more often to allow our BIG FOUR some rest. There is no reason for them to play 40 mins per game.

As for Felton, since he was drafted, everybody knew he was not an inmmediate impact in the league, and this is his third year and his first as a starting PG. Give the guy a break to understand he's role and get some confidence.

Even S.Nash a two times MVP, and probably the best PG alive on earth, came up big for the first time in his 5th year (3rdYr.w/DAL) with 7A, 15P in 30+mins. When you compare Felton to the other starting PG in the league, you are comparing a 3 Yrs. rookie, with veterans of over 8-10 years in the league with some exeptions, probably Deron Williams is one of them.

Plus, you have an expansion team in it's 4th year, with a completly new coaching staff, a rookie Head Coach and who's only real veterans (10+ yrs.)are: Anderson, Harrington and McInnis (They are not even Avg. players) and behind them is Primoz (what can I say), J-Rich and G-Force with 6 years. These last two are the closest thing the B-Cats have as veterans and they are doing their jobs. Yes, good guys also have some bad days. Besides them the rest of the team have been in the league for less than 3 years. And two of those (Felton & Okafor) are part of our BIG 4 guys.

Posted by: RobC | Nov 8, 2007 10:11:39 AM

Derek Anderson has some of the best basketball sense in the Association. I wish we were using him more. He was great when we signed him last year. He's a better POINT GUARD right now (not necessarily player) than Raymond Felton may ever be. As for Felton's experience, let's compare him to the other two point guards from his draft: Deron Williams and Chris Paul have been the two best statistical PGs in the NBA thus far. Other young starters doing well include Daniel Gibson, TJ Ford, Leandro Barbosa, Jameer Nelson, Sebastian Telfair, Rajon Rondo, and Jordan Farmar. Please don't give me this crap about how young players can't do well in the league.

Posted by: Michael Procton | Nov 8, 2007 5:14:41 PM

Procton,
Do you really mean to say that Daniel Gibson, TJ Ford, Barbosa, Nelson, etc... are better than Felton right now? Barbosa is awesome, but not a point guard. Ford, Nelson, Telfair, Rondo and Farmar have struggeled shooting as much if not more than Raymond. Are you actually giving these guys credit for their play and not Felton? Did he run over your dog or something?

And as far as Williams and Paul go, they are great point guards now. Look back at any draft in the recent past and tell me where there have been two pgs who blossomed like they have so early. Hindsight being 20-20, we should have traded up to get one of them, but Felton can still be good. Give the guy a break...

Posted by: BustaCat | Nov 9, 2007 3:20:29 PM

Relative to their draft position and the expectations placed upon them, they are ABSOLUTELY outperforming Felton. Combined, each of the first four you mentioned have led their teams to playoff experiences. Has Felton done that?

Posted by: Michael Procton | Nov 9, 2007 7:49:28 PM

First off, I generally like what you have to say on this blog. But really, "led their teams to playoff experiences"? Williams is the ONLY one out of that group that has done anything close to leading their teams to a playoff. Felton was drafted onto an expansion team that only started spending money this offseason (which all in all was a smart move). Ford has been on and off injured and has been an even worse shooter than Felton. Nelson, same deal. Farmar, Telfair, and Rondo... you've got to be kidding. And Barbosa, again he is not a point guard and has never been asked to be one in Phoenix. Gibson is a spot-up three point shooter playing point guard because the Cavs' use a point-forward formation. The only players of the ones you mentioned asked to do what Felton has been asked to do are Paul and Williams, and again I grant you that they are better (much better) than Felton.

Over the summer, I really wanted the 'Cats to pick up a solid second option at the point and a good defensive center. They did neither, which means we're beholden to Felton's development (and to Primoz Brezec- now that's scary... and stupid) to progress as a team. Last night he had another good game and we won. So far that's three good games for Ray and three wins, one bad and one DNP and two losses. I think that says something about what he means to the team.

I don't expect to convince you, so what do you think about what the rotation should look like? I like this 5: Felton, J-Rich, Wallace, Dudley and Okafor. Small, but lost of steals, blocks, rebounds and flexibility. That 5 with Carrol, Herrmann, Davidson and McInnis can make a run at the playoffs in my opinion. What do you think?

Posted by: BustaCat | Nov 10, 2007 11:10:01 PM

MONEY post and I am completely with you on our lineup options. I would trade the height of Primo for the versatility, fight, rebounding, skill, and improved team speed that Dudley would bring to the 4 position.

Posted by: Bustacat | Nov 11, 2007 12:36:42 AM

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