July 12, 2010
So if this trade ever happens...
Some thoughts about the trade-in-discussion involving the Bobcats and several other teams:
-- While it's no given this deal will come off (one source said it could still "dissolve'') I think it's more likely to happen than not. The Bobcats need a point guard badly, and while Jose Calderon has flaws and is expensive, he fills the prescription. And Boris Diaw and Tyson Chandler are expendable. I wrote a while back that, among the starters (or quasi-starters, in the case of Chandler) they were the most available.
-- The problem, I'm told, is Toronto general manager Bryan Colangelo's financial expectations. I don't know if that literally means cash or whether he's demanding another team take a bad contract off his payroll. But at the end of the day, Colangelo wants to make this work. It's now so public, it would be hard to stuff the genie back in the bottle. Chandler and Evans already consider themselves exes with their former teams.
-- It will be interesting to witness whether Calderon is better than Raymond Felton or just different from him. Their strengths and weaknesses are such a contrast. Calderon is a much better player offensively (both handling the ball and shooting), but Felton is far superior defensively.
Someday we might be asking ourselves why the Bobcats didn't pay Felton $16 million over two years (approximately the Knicks' offer) but did pay Calderon $29 million over three years. I know that's not precisely what happened -- trades and signings are distinctly different -- but the Bobcats would pay Calderon a lot more than they considered paying Felton.
-- It's not a big deal whether Chandler is here or not. And I still would have done the Chandler-Emeka Okafor deal, simply to undo the contract given Okafor (Larry Brown and Okafor were not a good match). If there's a regret in Chandler departing, it would be losing an expiring contract of nearly $13 million. If Chandler does leave, Nazr Mohammed will be a decent starter. And the pressure will be on Gana Diop to start earning his contract.
Posted by Observer Sports on July 12, 2010 at 09:08 PM | Permalink
Rick, re: "And the pressure will be on Gana Diop to start earning his contract."
Why hasn't there been this pressure previously? I realize the number of bodies at the position but I don't understand why then it wasn't more important (sooner) to make other centers expendable (or Diop look more attractive). It seems as if it is/has been ok that he anchors the bench with his seemingly never-ending contract.
Posted by: Adam | Jul 12, 2010 9:24:43 PM
It's hard to see (just above average, but just about dependable), Ray Felton go, but I think it was for the best.
I like Jose, but that pretty much says it all about, DJ! Which I kind of find a shame, because he had potential, but I don't see how we can give up both Boris' and Tysons expiring contracts for just, Jose?! I would say go for Al Jefferson and Raymond Sessions instead?
1. Boris could / would work out well as a 6th man, he did in a Suns uniform. He can pretty much play every position and would get good minutes.
2. The Raptors have been shopping every single bad contract they stupidly concocted and I can't see how we couldn't just trade Tyson for Jose? And or maybe find a way to off-load Diop, because Tysons contract is that valuable.
Expect to see Bargani on the block this time next year.
Go Bobcats, or whatever the team name is next year?
Posted by: NickyB | Jul 12, 2010 9:27:42 PM
I was hoping to see if Chandler could shread the injury bug and be a valuable C for us this year, plus keep the expiring contract.
Swapping Diaw for Calderon seems like a good deal
Posted by: usc88 | Jul 12, 2010 9:31:53 PM
Rick - any chance the current trade arrangement considers that the Bobcats not only need players but just need to drop payroll and reduce their cash outlays for the current year?
If you figure that with Thomas the payroll is around $66M and swapping Chandler/ Diaw for Jose and another lower paid player get the total payroll back to the mid $50MM range - enough to reduce cash outlays, but still only leaves the MLE and the BE to sign 'premium' players.
Does Colangelo see 'cash weakness' by the Bobcats and is exploiting it in negotiations?
Posted by: bobfan1 | Jul 12, 2010 9:33:44 PM
this is such a joke of an organization at this point. you don't give up a future 2nd rounder for beasley, yet you want to give up 2 valuable trade assets and STARTERS on this team for JOSE CALDERON?
rick you wrote in the other article that we have an "overabundance" of centers.....i would love for you to point them out to me. as far as I can see we have chandler and mohammed. we trade chandler, we have mohammed. how is that an overabundance?
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 12, 2010 9:35:09 PM
Charlottean (and Adam, by extension):
They're paying Diop approximately $7 million a season the next three years. They gave up a future first to acquire another 7-footer in Ajinca. Neither one even suits up. Not saying sitting them was inappropriate -- they haven't always deserved to suit up -- but what's a better example of "overabundance''?
Posted by: Rick Bonnell | Jul 12, 2010 10:05:19 PM
There was talk of an exception possibly heading our way. Rick, are you hearing any of that coming from these discussions. I would hope that is part of all of this.
Posted by: eleaf14 | Jul 12, 2010 10:17:35 PM
charlottean- the reason we couldn't give up a future 2nd round pick for beasley is we are over the cap, meaning we have to give up about as much salary as we give away. minnesota, on the other hand, was under the cap and didn't have such restrictions. miami wanted cap relief for beasley, and a team thats under the cap like minnesota can give that to them much more easily than a team over the cap like the bobcats.
Posted by: gforce | Jul 12, 2010 10:17:52 PM
I don't think Nazr Mohammad will be a "decent starter" simply because we can't expect him to play starter minutes over 70-75 games at this stage in his career.
He was solid last year, but he couldn't sustain it due to injury and age. This year if he fails to sustain it, we are stuck with Gana Diop as a starter, and that is disastrous.
Hopefully an additional move is in the works.
Posted by: DeLaQuest | Jul 12, 2010 10:18:36 PM
an overabundance of centers implies that we've got too many guys to play. I'm still really high on the ajinca trade even if it doesn't work out, you just can't pass on a kid with that skill set and size. you can't. it's a rule. he's 22, i think we SHOULD give him 10 minutes a game minimum at the beginning of the season. there's no other way we'll see any return on the investment. I mean he WAS a d-league all-star last year. That has to mean something given how many d-leaguers have found their way into rotations these days.
as for diop, i've been saying since shortly after the trade......we have to have a celtic pride type of scenario where he gets kidnapped until his contract runs out and we collect insurance money and get a roster exception for the fact that he's M.I.A. It would be exactly how it is right now except he wouldn't be the only season ticket holder that gets paid to come to the games.
Neither of those guys can play big minutes THIS YEAR. Ajinca could against certain teams but I don't think brown is that high on him. regardless, nobody with a brain makes this trade. 10 million a year for a pg who lost his starting job to jarrett jack. that's not a knock on jarrett jack, its just to point out that you can't pay 10 million a year for the guy that's NOT better than jarrett jack. and jack makes 5 million a year if i'm not mistaken.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 12, 2010 10:21:09 PM
Thanks for explaining that. Some people just don't get it that Beasley wasn't about a second-round pick. He was about cap space.
Posted by: Rick Bonnell | Jul 12, 2010 10:21:49 PM
what are the rules about aquiring a player and then shipping them out. is there a time limit. because with evans at 5 mill along with the trade exemption we get from toronto we end up with a solid offer to minny for C al jefferson AND PG ramon sessions. larry brown loves tall pg's and we need some muscle in the post. make it happen higgins
minny gets reggie evans, 10 plus mill trade exemption, frenchy toast
charlotte gets al jefferson and ramon sessions
Posted by: brendan | Jul 12, 2010 10:23:46 PM
i'm not an idiot, i know about the cap rules.....at the end of the day, beasley was obtainable. and he was, for a 2nd round pick. we could have grabbed a 3rd team to make it work. it was there for the taking. they just didn't get it done and minny gets him for a 2nd rounder. if we make the deal with toronto, we could have made the exact same deal at the same time they dealt bosh and killed 8,034,985 birds with one trade.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 12, 2010 10:40:43 PM
Do the Cats get the Bosh trade exemption from the raptors if this deal goes through?
Posted by: Eric | Jul 12, 2010 11:21:55 PM
Why do you guys want to pay Al Jefferson $14 million a year over the next 3 years???
Posted by: Dumbfounded | Jul 12, 2010 11:22:17 PM
Not sure if this will make you feel better or worse, but the Bobcats apparently made a serious attempt to acquire Beasley with a multi team trade. One of the teams backed out at the last minute.
You seem to constantly criticize MJ and the Bobcats' management. You may want to cut them some slack. The team is improving. I have confidence things will get done. It's want a fan does. Something to think about.
Per ESPN on July 8th:
Yet sources say that a four-team trade scenario between the Heat, Raptors, Bobcats and Rockets hatched on the eve of LeBron’s hour-long “Decision” special on ESPN would enable Toronto to bring back an asset or two in the wake of Chris Bosh’s departure but also avoid taking back Beasley. Which is believed to be the only sort of sign-and-trade that the Raptors would consider.
The proposed deal, sources said, would send Beasley and Rockets forward Jared Jeffries to Charlotte, land Bobcats center Tyson Chandler in Houston and create sufficient cap space for Heat president Pat Riley to offer max-contract money to Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and James.
The Heat and Raptors engaged in discussions for several hours after Bosh and Wade announced that they were committing to Miami in a package about the various sign-and-trade options. Discussions were serious enough Wednesday night, according to two sources, that Heat officials told Beasley to start preparing to relocate.
One source with knowledge of Toronto’s thinking, however, insists that the four-team trade -- which would require Houston to send at least $3.1 million in salary to the Raptors -- is "not happening." Toronto continues to convey the message that it is a reluctant partner in any deal that makes Bosh’s departure more lucrative.
But another source close to the process told ESPN.com on Thursday afternoon that Charlotte is highly motivated to acquire Beasley, which would undoubtedly encourage Miami -- which has been struggling to find a team willing to gamble on Beasley because of his off-court baggage -- to keep pressing for the trade to be consummated...
Posted by: PhatCat | Jul 12, 2010 11:54:54 PM
1. He's pretty much a 20 & 10 kind of player
2. He's better than, Okafor and Chandler
3. He's 25
4. He's Al Jefferson
5. If we don't spend 10mil + on him we will sooner or later on a lesser player
6. We need a center
7. Why the hell not, we could do a lot worse?
AL + Sessions, for Chandler + DJ or Henderson or Alexis (if it's not already too late.)
Then Diaw for Jose.
Jose - Sessions
Jackson - Henderson
Wallace - Brown
Thomas - FA?
AL - Nazi
Posted by: NickyB | Jul 13, 2010 12:02:07 AM
Rick, Can you explain to me why it matters if we kept chandler's expiring contract ? I thought if we trade him, we save 12.6 million plus 9 mill for Boris....and add about 14 mill this yr if the trade goes through. This leaves us with 6 or 7 mill to offer to a free agent center. Is there any truth to the rumors about us acquiring either Scola or Amundson ??? Either one of them would be great ! Please let me know.
Posted by: Elliot Motaleb | Jul 13, 2010 12:30:02 AM
phatcat....i'm aware of the talks which is why i'm so critical of the fact that they let it slip through the cracks. I'm critical of the fact that instead of being patient and bringing in a young guy that might develop into a star, the run and trade for a mediocre veteran who's overpaid. I mean i'm not blindly critical. i loved the tyrus thomas trade. I liked the tyson chandler for okafor trade. but why would you rush to trade the expiring goldmine that it is RIGHT NOW if you aren't getting EXACTLY what you want for it?
like i said, calderon lost his job to jack and jack was just a free agent prior to last year and he commanded a 4 year 20 mil deal. so if calderon just lost his job to him and his contract is 3 years 29 million.....how can you justify that as being a good move to take that on? just wait until january when a team with a real pg is tanking and swoop in for the kill. there's only 8 playoff spots each way and there are definitely 20 pg's in the league better than calderon.
i think augustin given the chance could be twice as good. how good can he be if not given the chance. he was given the chance as a rookie and he performed. its like how they treated morrison. rookie year, he had your average rookie year....12 ppg, horrible % shooting on a horrible team....year 2 blows out knee....year 3....traded before given any real minutes and didn't even play bad in the minutes he got. you can't develop talent that way. you gotta let em work through growing pains. build around them not dismantle every 5 weeks. augustin will be next to be given up on too early. ajinca too, surely.
and keep in mind in all of this that i think calderon is a good ball player. i like his game. but not for 10 mil a year. not for our team either. and definitely not for giving up our biggest trade assets.
we're better off standing pat and taking the cap room next year or atleast waiting until the RIGHT deal comes along, not just any deal.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 13, 2010 12:34:06 AM
i agree w/ charlottean about dj, ajinca, and to an extent maybe adam morrison. I'm always critical of the bobcats horrible draft choices, but it's even worse that they don't give these guys time to develop. if you throw these guys in during garbage time and give jackson and wallace some rest...we'd have a better idea of what they can do.
i don't get why people are so ready to give up on dj...what has he done to be labeled a bust? he had a good rookie season, a bad sophomore season...it's not anything abnormal, i a lot of guys have similar transition to the nba...if he can't pick it up this year then you make a decision on him.
Posted by: bunkombe | Jul 13, 2010 12:52:30 AM
Would love to see MJ make a run at Shaq. We have a pretty good situation to offer because he would clearly be the top option at center, but we have 2 or 3 adequate centers behind him, so he could basically play as many minutes as he wants and stay healthy for the playoffs. This is a big chance for MJ to lure a big-name free agent who would sell a lot of tickets. One advantage we might have is we are about 8 mil under the cap i think, so we might be able to offer a bit more than his other suitors. We could spend up to the cap on Shaq, and still have 2 mil extra under the luxury tax to say, re-sign Larry Hughes and Stevie Graham to minimum deals. That would give us
Solid depth chart, could potentially trade Nazr's expiring deal for a wing if we feel we need more help there.
Posted by: SouthBlvdBobcat | Jul 13, 2010 1:00:04 AM
Or maybe we can sign Shaq and Flip instead of Hughes/Graham. Then trade Nazr for a backup SF if Diop and/or Ajinca show potential.
Posted by: SouthBlvdBobcat | Jul 13, 2010 1:36:56 AM
I love this trade! Tyson just didn't have a great season with us. His salary is large for a player who avg 22 min per game and only played 51 games. I had Jose on my fantasy team and he's going to be a great pickup for the Bobcats. I like him better than Felton. Felton wasn't known as a defensive stopper, so the defensive dropoff won't be that bad. He doesn't have Felton's toughness, but he's a better shooter and he takes better care of the ball. He makes better decisions with the ball also. That's going to help our team overall. Once we signed Thomas, Diaw became expendable. We aren't making huge moves, but we are getting better overall. We should be able to trade Nazr also! He has an expiring contract, so that's always a great asset to have.
Posted by: Bobcatsfan | Jul 13, 2010 3:08:32 AM
Jose avg 6 mins less than Felton for the season last year, but he avg more assist than Felton. Jose avg 5.9 apg compared to Felton's career low 5.6. He shot 48.2% from the field compared to Felton's career high 45.9%. He shot 39.8% from the 3pt line compared to Felton's 38.5%. His assist to turnover ratio was 3rd in the league compared to Felton's rank of 18th in the league. The guy is just more efficient than Felton, which is exactly what we needed from our PG position.
Posted by: Bobcatsfan | Jul 13, 2010 3:11:55 AM
definitely, as a season ticket holder, give me shaq, and calderon for spacing. I love it! MJ please!
Posted by: altheus | Jul 13, 2010 3:22:35 AM
Just two cents from a Raptors fan...
Don't underestimate Calderon just because he lost the starting job to a cheaper player. That was due mostly to 1) his injury, and 2) Turkoglu's presence. Calderon is indeed a defensive liability at the point (he's far from alone in this though), but his offensive contribution, whether his efficient shooting or the way he makes the rest of the team better on offense, has always made up for that, if not more.
When Turkoglu joined the team, he diminished Calderon's offensive contributions greatly since he wanted the ball to go through him. Turkoglu and Jack were simply a better pairing, but it was apparent that the team's offense wasn't as good with Jack. A lot of the success attributed to Jack is somewhat misplaced as it overestimated their strength of schedule when Jack was starting (and Calderon was injured), or underestimated the strength of schedule (and the fact that the team needed time to gel) when Calderon was starting.
Posted by: Jonathan | Jul 13, 2010 6:18:13 AM
I don't understand how the finances work if we don't get the raptors' trade exception in this, how does chandler/diaw for calderon/evans work without it? The espn trade machine has this trade fail because the money doesn't work. Could this be what's holding up the trade?
Posted by: brandon | Jul 13, 2010 7:18:18 AM
Jordan's got cold feet. http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NBA&hl=137802&id=1171
Posted by: flanahan32 | Jul 13, 2010 9:31:59 AM
I have league pass and I watch a lot of games around the league. Jose Calderon will quickly become a fan favorite in Charlotte sort of the same way Dell Curry, and Muggsy were for us.
Calderon is a class act and a good leader. His teammates reportedly love him on both the Spanish National Team and the Raptors. Ownership and the coaching staff love him. His jersey sales were amongst the highest on the Raptors. And those are just the intangibles this guy brings to the table.
Last year was a down year for him but his percentages are absolutely jaw dropping in almost a Steve Nash sort of way. I guess I just feel that if any team can absorb his athletic deficiencies defensively it's probably us and I'd like to have a guy on this team that I actually like cheering for and the kind of player who enjoys being a member of the community, rather than treating it like some sort of obligation.
Management overestimated the North Carolina contingent's support for Felton. We don't like guys just because they went to school nearby. We like guys who leave it all out on the court, think about the front of the jersey first, and represent our city well. Everything I've read about Jose Calderon supports just that so I have no problem representing us for the next 3 years of his prime.
Posted by: Mike | Jul 13, 2010 9:39:19 AM
Actually according to every source but you, the problem lies with MJ. He's wavering after going official with this showing his greenness...
If you got a sense it was Colangelo...then name the why's and the who's otherwise your showing your greenness.
Posted by: Gman | Jul 13, 2010 10:34:20 AM
"I don't understand how the finances work if we don't get the raptors' trade exception in this, how does chandler/diaw for calderon/evans work without it? The espn trade machine has this trade fail because the money doesn't work. Could this be what's holding up the trade?"
Well, first, never rely on ESPN trade machine, especially now when the salary figures have yet to be totally updated.
Second, Toronto can absorb Diaw and Chandler's contracts if this deal is made as one big trade along with the Phoenix components. Diaw + Chandler + Barbosa = $28.85 mil salary, and Toronto can take on $29.95 mil max by sending out Turkoglu, Calderon and Evans, without using any part of their Bosh TPE.
Third, TPEs are generated from the individual viewpoint of each team, rather than transferred from team to team. Because Charlotte is trading Chandler and Diaw at the same time, no TPE credit is generated for Charlotte, no matter how little salary you get back. For Charlotte to receive a TPE credit, you would need to break Chandler and Diaw into two separate trades, but this in turn hurts Toronto because of their need to keep it as one big trade.
Posted by: Jonathan | Jul 13, 2010 11:11:25 AM
"Everything I've read about Jose Calderon supports just that so I have no problem representing us for the next 3 years of his prime."
As long as Charlotte fans can swallow him getting burned by quite a few opposing PGs, you will love him. Toronto fans used to love him too, hence the jersey sales, but we have a major tendency to scapegoat and throw players under the bus. He has flaws but nobody can accuse him of not trying. And sometimes, he'll even make a good, spunky defensive play.
You can see one example at around 2:46 to 3:40 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBn81K6V13
Posted by: Jonathan | Jul 13, 2010 11:32:38 AM
Trade is dead
Posted by: 4Gross | Jul 13, 2010 11:36:22 AM
maybe the upcoming NBA lockout will force owners to reconsider the size of these contracts....and I wish the NBA would dump guaranteed contracts...
Posted by: Scott | Jul 13, 2010 12:27:27 PM
Now that the trade is dead, thank the lord!, I'd like to propose/repeat a trade I want to see happen.
Chandler/Diaw or Diaw,Diop & Nazr for Monta Ellis and Biedrins. I'd rather see Diaw,Diop & Nazr leave, but on only time will tell.
Ellis, DJ, Flip
Wallace, Williams, Brown
Chandler, Biedrin, Ajinca
Posted by: The Great Prognosticator | Jul 13, 2010 1:37:45 PM
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