July 21, 2013
Video highlights: Charlotte Bobcats fall in summer-league semisGolden State Warriors 75, Charlotte Bobcats 67: Cameron Jones scored 16 points to lead the Warriors past the Bobcats in Sunday night's NBA Summer League semifinals in Las Vegas. Troy Daniels & Brandon Triche scored 13 for Charlotte in the loss.
Posted by Observer Sports on July 21, 2013 at 11:41 PM | Permalink
Not sure why Clifford elected to play only guys who will not even get a camp invitation these last two games. Seemed like a few guys, specifically MKG and Biz, could use every minute they can get in these games.
Posted by: Gerbs | Jul 22, 2013 9:33:25 AM
mkg is starting team usa camp today so it made sense for him.
made sense to sit zeller and taylor since they had little to prove and had played what? 3 games in 5 days?
plus you want to evaluate the other guys. we have several roster spots available. none of those guys are nba talents though. we should have fielded a better group but I guess guys saw we had 4 positions sewed up and wanted to go elsewhere for more playing time.
sims is not even close. ajinca wouldn't have played summer league this year with risk of getting hurt, but for a fellow 5 man on the fringe, ajinca would eat sims up. wouldn't even be close.
skeen is there offensively, but defense would be a challenge for him. too slow on the perimeter and no quite big enough down low or so it appeared. strip on draymond green was nice though (should have been a 5 sec violation about 8 seconds prior though).
dyson is probably the closest, but he's cory higgins level at best. i bet dijuan harris could have run the point better than he or triche. prob not score as much, but def turn the ball over less. some of the passing was atrocious.
coaching wise, it wasn't impressive, but i do like several of the looks we're running offensively for zeller on the wing. it's going to be hard for many 4 men in the nba to guard him, especially if he's making 3's at a respectable rate.
sign hendo and curry already.
really should have had more guys with roster potential out there. really unfortunate curry wasn't healthy.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 22, 2013 9:55:07 AM
Yeah, the SL roster was unimpressive.
I expected more from some of the players, but Jamie Skeen and Deron Washington were disappointing.
Dyson was very inconsistent; great game against Memphis, weak last night against Golden State, so-so in other games.
I wish Keith Benson got more opportunities. He's pretty good, but he played in just two games for a total of 40 minutes.
He could compete for the third string PF position, but I think Jeff Adrien deserves it more, for his inside toughness and his hard work last season.
Posted by: Sandy | Jul 22, 2013 1:18:23 PM
Did they think Henry Sims will make the team?
Probably not, so at least they should've divided minutes between him and Biz in the last two games.
Biz has still a lot to learn, and more playing time for him in the Summer League was needed.
Posted by: Sandy | Jul 22, 2013 1:27:02 PM
The Bobcats have an UFA player named Gerald Henderson. Although ont a star, he is a very good player worth keeping.
Any news on Hendo?????
Posted by: RobC | Jul 23, 2013 9:47:52 AM
Seems to me the more time passes, the more likely we are to keep Henderson. If no other team offers him a contract--and if he doesn't like whatever multi year we offer him--what choice will he have but to play on the qualifying offer?
China? Can't see it.
Wow, he'd be a steal on that qualifying offer.
Posted by: Jeff | Jul 23, 2013 9:58:25 AM
a steal for one season.
I'm OK if that's the result of the posturing. That saves us a few million that we can use to outbid anyone next summer, but that's assuming the guy would even want to return.
unrestricted free agency.......restricts a guy's free agency. look at brandon jennings. there are a few teams in the league that would pay him monta ellis money or even more (he's a bit younger, and a natural 1 who could play the 2 as opposed to the opposite).
but they can't do it reasonably when the guy is a RFA and milwaukee would surely match. and on jennings end, he's not going to sign a deal with say......dallas where he's willing to take 8 million a year with no state tax to play with dirk and for mark cuban..........vs. 9 million a year with wisconsin state tax to be on a mediocre young team with a very very very confusing GM in john hammond. he makes brilliant moves all of the time, yet mucks it all up with idiotic moves like trading bogut for ellis and not keeping him and trading harris for reddick and not keeping him.
so jennings can't sign the hypothetical offer sheet from dallas because he wouldn't accept that from milwaukee.
it's a VERY different animal altogether. gives us a hold over henderson, but not one that's appreciated when they're overpaying jefferson, have a ton of cap room, and don't want to give him what the market has clearly dictated he would get as an UFA.
if they haven't offered AT LEAST 6.75 million annually, they're being ruthless. which is going to run the guy out of town. our negotiating tactics (even under cho) have been suspect at best.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 23, 2013 11:28:30 AM
Hard to speculate what they've offered vs. what he wants, all of which is complicated by the fact we may not need him next season, depending on Taylor's development, who we select in the draft, and who is available next year in free agency.
What if Taylor continues to develop, we sign Seth Curry, and we get a guy like Jabari Parker in the draft? A wing rotation of Taylor, Curry, MKG, and Parker would be elite for years to come, and all those guys have more upside at specific skills than Henderson.
So many variables once you look beyond this season. Unfortunately for Henderson that makes his value greater in a shorter deal. I think he'd be great on Phoenix. Could be a better fit both teams and players if we keep him on the QO and swap him for Gortat before the trade deadline. Eventually Haywood comes off the books, and we could have a big man rotation of Jefferson, Gortat, Zeller, Biyombo, and McRoberts. Stellar.
That front court combined with the wings I've mentioned, Kemba at point guard, and a backup pg we get in the draft or free agency would have a chance of competing for a championship.
So many variables. We shall see.
Posted by: Jeff | Jul 23, 2013 12:04:59 PM
If possible, would people rather keep Henderson or sign Gary Neal?
Neal might be more comfortable playing the sixth man role, which would allow Taylor to start. He also shoots the three well and could stand in as the third point guard, when necessary, which Clifford has identified as a need. Personally I might go with Neal.
What do people think?
Posted by: Jeff | Jul 23, 2013 6:12:07 PM
In offense (scoring potential) they're about even; Neal is the more talented shooter, Hendo can do more on drives.
But, Hendo has the edge in defense and rebounding, thanks to an advantage in size and athleticism. He's also three years younger than Neal.
As an undrafted player, Gary Neal was a great find for the Spurs, and a very useful reserve. I guess he should be a keeper for them.
For the reasons above, I'd stick with Hendo. Whether it's the Q.O., or a multi-year contract (with two or three years guaranteed - preferably two - plus one year team option), we should keep him, and also maintain flexibility for the future.
That's why, I'd care more about limiting the number of guaranteed years in his new contract than about the rate per year.
They (management and agent) are still negotiating, and evidently each side tries to get the best possible deal.
We shouldn't be losing again another good player, a lottery pick, for nothing.
I think he'll be back next season; we'll just have to wait and see under what terms.
Posted by: Sandy | Jul 24, 2013 12:41:19 AM
This Henderson mess is getting old. Just let him go. He clearly is over valuing himself. He is not a part of this team's long term future. Clifford made that clear. He values bigs, rebounding, and defense. Henderson just covers one of those things.
Posted by: D.W.G. | Jul 24, 2013 10:03:49 AM
neal is more of a point guard which is a positive for him to play the 1 and the 2. but defensively, he's nowhere near henderson level and he definitely can't guard 3's. just 2 completely different guys. hard to say which would be better for the team.
with sessions on the roster and neal looking to get paid.....i would go henderson even if it costs a bit more. if we're planning on moving sessions soon, i would love to have henderson AND neal (only possible if they make a trade now(unlikely) or if henderson signs the QO....NOW).
you're speculating too much. you can't make decisions NOW based on next years draft. you can tank for higher standings, but you can't let henderson walk assuming that we have a great shot at getting parker when in reality we don't. philly, phoenix, and probably boston are looking to tank. then there's the atlanta, milwaukee, toronto, orlando, cleveland, that it could go either way for them and depends on health. we aren't CLEARLY the worst team anymore so we might not even be guaranteed a top 5 pick like we have been the past 2 years. signing jefferson pushed us just out of that I believe.
i will absolutely live with henderson leaving if we sign curry. absolutely. but a curry/henderson/taylor/mkg rotation at the wing is better than a taylor/mkg/curry/gordon? situation. I don't mind taylor starting over henderson at all. but he hasn't proven himself in the league the way henderson has. plenty of guys have great summer leagues. he had a great summer league last year too. not quite as good, but he stood out.
there's no scenario for a team like ours......where letting good, young talent that can be obtained at a reasonable price, go. there's no scenario where letting guys go is good for the franchise. a guy like henderson can ALWAYS be traded. but he can't always be signed.
we draft an elite wing, you trade henderson or whoever. taylor shows he's the man for the job, you move henderson to the bench and that immediately upgrades our bench BIG TIME. and our bench was a huge weakness last year especially when sessions went down.
the only scenario where henderson becomes untradeable is if we give him 45 million over 5 years and he's not asking that much, nor would he ever get that much. but market value for him is 7-8 a year. mayo got it, afflalo got it, even redick got it, derozan got overpaid and got more, etc. etc. etc. dude is arguably better than all of those guys and can SURELY be had than less than most of them.
there's no reason to get tight on a guy like him with the amount of cap room we have coming up. we've gotten in trouble for overpaying based on POTENTIAL. this is a situation of paying appropriately for what we already know he is.
the worst case scenario with henderson is either a SOLID 6th man or a great trade chip. that's the worst case scenario. the best case is a role similar to his dad's with the celtics, but he's better than his dad was. sr. would tell you that. he and dell have a club.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 24, 2013 10:50:02 AM
I said all I've can on the Henderson discussion. It's a numbers game from here on out. There is an "appropriate" price for keeping Henderson, but if the two sides can't agree on that price, he will either have to find someone willing to pay more directly or in sign-and-trade (doesn't seem either has happened yet) or take the QO.
As for speculating, speculation drives the modern game of basketball for all but the luxury paying teams.
Posted by: Jeff | Jul 24, 2013 4:00:15 PM
Who writes "Sports World Reports".
There are all kinds of crazy trade scenarios posted in that website including Gerald Henderson.
1.) Sign and trade with Indiana for Danny Granger. Unless Indiana includes a 1st Rd pick (which I doubt they will), I will not make that trade, since Granger has been injured the past 4 years and he can walk away for nothing next season.
2.) Sign and trade to Memphis, not sure what the Bobcats will get in return.
3.) Sign and trade with Toronto for Demar Derozan, if that is the case, just give Henderson a fully guaranteed 3 year deal for $8-$9 millions per season, Hendo is clearly the better player.
4.) Sign and trade with Toronto for Rudy Gay. Now the Cats would have to add Ben Gordon to make it work, and I think the Cats should demand at least a 1st Rd pick just for taking on Gay super-loaded contract.
I know they are only rumors, but I also hope they are not true at all, none of those trades makes sense for the Bobcats. The players in return are either too expensive, too old, injury prone or a mix of those factors. Not a good idea unless there is an extra non-protected 2014 1st Rd pick and still I'm hesitating.
Posted by: RobC | Jul 25, 2013 8:39:06 AM
I agree, RobC.
If indeed such scenarios are being discussed, it shows that other teams' GMS understand Henderson's value.
Of course, our FO doesn't have to bite the bait. Keep bargaining patiently with Hendo's agent (who, evidently, tries to squeeze as much as he thinks he can out of this deal; we're talking about Arnie Tellem, the No.1 NBA players' agent).
Either a reasonable agreement can be reached, or the QO can be used. Same thing if he gets an offer sheet from another team: match it, if it's not grossly overloaded (and I don't expect that to happen).
We have no reason to blink first.
Posted by: Sandy | Jul 25, 2013 9:37:48 AM
we simultaneously have no reason to risk it. we have nothing to lose signing him, and everything to lose by not being able to trade him + him walking next summer.
look at the free agent class next summer......if we want to let him be unrestricted next summer, we're hoping on replacing him in the draft and/or with jeff taylor. everyone keeps bringing up stephenson and george (who are the only legit free agent wing players) and neither of them are leaving indiana. that's batman and robin of the future right there. they aren't leaving. they'll both get big extensions with granger coming off the books.
you can argue that playing out the Qualifying Offer with hendo buys us another year of weighing hendo vs jeff taylor and/or making a trade for a big time 2 guard (highly unlikely given we can't include henderson in the deal on the QO). and that by playing on the QO for a year, that saves us a few million this year that can hypothetically be used next summer to outbid his best offer which is assuming he wants to return. and assuming that a team with better state income taxes isn't bidding on him.
but on the flip side.....it's not a great PR situation for the franchise's draft picks. track record there has not been good. and overpaying for henderson doesn't really affect us much at all. give the guy 9 million a year and that still doesn't put us in the tax this year and leaves us with something like 16 million in cap room next year and 8 core guys under contract (this is assuming mcroberts picks up his player option).
and that scenario pays him 9 million. 7 million would almost surely get it done and regardless of what it is, you can front load it to give us more cap room for the last 2 years of the deal.
no matter what happens, we have more cap room than we have quality guys wanting to come here.
gerald henderson pps - 1.234
al jefferson pps - 1.13
one of those 2 plays defense and fits with our core roster. that same guy is something like 3 years younger.
the other guy just got 41.5 million. where is the argument here? even if we DID overpay, he's still tradeable. I am ALL ABOUT using leverage in our negotiations to get the absolute best quality out of our cap room. but overpaying jefferson and risking letting henderson go without compensation or replacement is not a solid gameplan.
hornets never let this kind of thing happen. they would give the guy his money and then trade him. mourning to rice, rice to jones, jones to mashburn. not mourning........signs with miami heat. THAT model would be unsustainable. kinda like the one we're working under in bobcats franchise history.
minnesota is in a similar situation with pekovic, but watch them get that done.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 25, 2013 7:47:14 PM
You probably agree that those trade scenarios are bad for us, and shouldn't be accepted.
As for overpaying, I agree to some, but not to a massive one, to the tune of $9 mil per year. That the Raptors just did it doesn't mean we should imitate them.
It sure doesn't look like teams are lining up for a chance to get Henderson's services.
I don't think this will change next offseason.
The market will dictate more flexibility to Mr. Tellem. Also, can anyone tell now what are our chances to get a good wing player in the next offseason, either in free agency or the draft (assuming Hendo stays on just for the one year QO)? It can be a SF too, thanks to Taylor's versatility.
After we drafted Jeff Taylor, my immediate comment was that this is a steal, and he is a player who, under the right circumstances, can become a really good NBA starter.
He made quite a statement in the Summer League, didn't he? Just give him another year to develop, and he might turn out to be just this: a good starter at either SG or SF.
Arnie Tellem will have to think of this too; not only suitors for Hendo are not seen standing in a long line, but also, we have options.
No comparison with Al Jefferson. It's been said many times, from different sources: it's the hardest thing to find in this league, a quality starter at center; even harder to find, one who's ready to play for a small market team. Same applies to Pekovic.
I'm not saying that Hendo is not important to us, and I don't want us to lose him for nothing. I hope a reasonable compromise will be found, resulting in a multi-year contract for him here.
But, if Mr. Tellem will choose to play hardball to the bitter end, and Hendo will let him do it on his behalf, then, we'll have options next offseason (Hendo himself being one of them, assuming he goes now for the QO!).
Our management is not blinking, and they don't need to.
Posted by: Sandy | Jul 26, 2013 9:55:44 AM
Unless Hendo is willing to take less money to sign with a contender, I beleive a 3 Year deal with a Player Option on the last year in the $20-24 range should make it work. When you look at his overall game, he is as good or better than Stephenson (IND), Sefolosha (OKC), Allen (MEM), Ellis (DAL), Mayo (MIL), Turner (PHI), Martin (MIN), Affalo (ORL), etc. All those guys make between $4M-$8M per season and the ones who make under $6M are all playing for Championship contenders.
My only concern is that if the Hendo only plays for the QO, he will be playing for his contract and the Bobcats can lose him for nothing (unless they sign and trade him next summer and get at least a trade exception). Hendo is a great, high-class guy, solid overall player (even if he is not an all-star), he has great B-Ball IQ, and he wants to be here (but is a business). For any team that is not a contender, he is worth $7M-$8M per year. Just look at Martin, Mayo, Ellis, DeRozan, etc.
A 3 Year deal front loaded contract worth $22M with a Team Option in the 3rd Year should make it work for both Hendo and the Cats. Offer him $9M-$6M and a $7M (TO) and that should give both of them enough money, time and flexibility to see if this will work in the future.
The truth is that if he walks for nothing, from a PR perspctive this will look really bad, when everyone knows that $7M/Year is not a bad contract for him and he was/is your teams "C-Captain".
Posted by: RobC | Jul 26, 2013 10:34:38 AM
Jeff, it's not the least bit hard to speculate on what the BOBcats may or may not be offering Henderson, actually it's quite easy to do so.
RobC, you hit the nail on the head -- "Unless Hendo is willing to take less money to sign with a contender..."
This has certainly happened before and not even necessarily with a contender!
Don't underestimate the desire of player to get OUT of the bumbling stumbling butt-fumbling joke of an organization known as The BOBcats! For that matter, who have we ever retained?!?
If the BOB's try to nickel-dime Hendo I won't be the least bit surprised to see him take less money elsewhere and leave -- why wouldn't he? If he's been smart about it (and he is a Duke guy after all) he already has plenty of money...
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jul 26, 2013 11:32:38 AM
"A 3 Year deal front loaded contract worth $22M with a Team Option in the 3rd Year should make it work for both Hendo and the Cats", then "everyone knows that $7M/Year is not a bad contract for him".
It's easy for me to agree, but is this what he and his agent are asking for? I suspect they're holding out for much more (both duration and yearly rate).
There are examples of shooting guards who just got exaggerated contracts, and that, I suppose, makes Arnie Tellem get pretty stiff in these negotiations. As I was saying, I hope Hendo and his agent will get a wake-up call, that trying to get overpaid isn't gonna work.
Besides, though I agree with your estimates, I'd rather beware of getting too specific about any numbers. We can't know what the parties are putting on the table at this time, it's in their best interest not to make any numbers public, so ... let's wait and see how this develops.
Posted by: Sandy | Jul 26, 2013 11:39:56 AM
As far as I can tell we've only had 4 players who have played with the BOB's more than 4 years...
...and one of those was Matt Carroll.
Crash 7, Emeka 5, Felton 5....and the slurpers seem to hate all those guys.
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jul 26, 2013 11:41:21 AM
Bobcats are playing it smart with Hendo. Nice player, but replaceable. Don't lock in long term. Get a team option for a change and no more than 7 million. If he goes elsewhere and takes less, so be it.
Posted by: Season Ticket Holder 2 | Jul 26, 2013 5:24:49 PM
replaceable but it takes cap room and or draft picks to do so. we already spent one on him. we keep him, we have a trade asset and bird rights in the future when we are over the cap.
robc lined up how i feel.....sandy, to be clear.....i was using 9 million as a worst case scenario knowing he will never get that, nor is it necessary. i was just showing that even 9 million wouldn't hurt us as much as letting him walk will. there's no indication that the bobcats have offered a 3 year 21 million dollar deal, but that appears to be all it would take to get it done. if henderson plays on the qo, he isn't coming back.
the jefferson comparison....obviously bigs are in lower supply and get paid more, but the fact that he got 13.5 a year and scores less efficiently, is older, and doesn't play defense, is simply used as a comp for the guy who we're talking about giving 7 million a year. the same argument goes for taking jefferson over hickson who was cheaper and more effective in all aspects except ball stopping.
we are nearing unnecessary risk territory. it's not panic mode yet, but the flippant attitude that henderson playing under the qualifying offer is a good scenario for the franchise is completely overestimating how easy it is to get a guy like hendo who can be an absolute ELITE glue guy once he doesn't have to be a mediocre go to option.
you can put anybody out there and put up shots, but intangibles, defense, effecient shooting while not being ball dominant is NOT something easily replaceable in that price range. you can get a shooter and that's it, or you get a chucker like a mayo or ellis or gordon. which never wins.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 26, 2013 7:15:53 PM
Seems to me "elite" and "glue guy" are mutually exclusive terms.
The possible exception being Bobby Jones....
....and Hendo ain't no Bobby Jones.
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jul 26, 2013 9:03:14 PM
hendo's dad was an elite glue guy. boris diaw is/was an elite glue guy. lamar odom with the lakers was. shawn marion, shane battier.
it's no different than saying an elite tight end instead of elite quarterback. obviously QB impacts more, but you can be elite among the other tight ends.
i don't think I would describe bobby jones as a glue guy either.
Posted by: charlottean | Jul 27, 2013 10:50:26 AM
The slurpers hate Diaw yet you describe him as "elite"?
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jul 27, 2013 10:22:02 PM
Who would you suggest is an "elite 12th man"?
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jul 27, 2013 10:29:55 PM
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