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November 26, 2013

If you disagree with Clifford sitting Biz, that's cool. But understand this is about quantifiable performance

Here’s what’s interesting about Charlotte Bobcats coach Steve Clifford’s decision to play Jeff Adrien over Bismack Biyombo:

            Whether it’s right, wrong or indifferent, he backs up his choices with facts. When I quizzed him Tuesday about how little Biyombo has played the past three games, he pointed out that the plus-minus differential between Adrien and Biyombo was dramatic in the games leading up to this decision.

            So I fact-checked Clifford’s contention and it was dramatic. In the five games leading up to this decision, Adrien was plus-24, while Biyombo was minus-38. While I find plus-minus an imperfect measure of players’ contributions, that gap is wide.

            Clifford said he’d feel “guilty” playing Biyombo over Adrien in the face of that. I think that was his way of saying players know who’s succeeding at their jobs and who isn’t, so to act like that’s not relevant is phony.

            I don’t think this is a permanent circumstance. My guess is Biyombo will win back his status as backup center to Al Jefferson. But the key word is “win” it back. Don’t be presented it based on where he was drafted.

            I get a lot of feedback about this issue that Clifford should be concerned with player-development. Interesting, because early-on I used that “player-development” term with Clifford, and he pointed out that player development isn’t just about young guys improving their skills in a vacuum. It’s about everyone understanding how what they do fits into a team’s success.

            I didn’t pay much attention to what he was saying when he said it. Now, as it relates to playing time, I see what he what he’s pushing.

Posted by Observer Sports on November 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM | Permalink


No need to get technical w/ this breakdown. Biz has improved from his rookie year to present day. His ability to rebound and alter shots alone should keep him in the rotation. Must be some intangibles that are missing behind the scenes w/ this one b/c it doesn't make sense to me. If he does not play against Hibbert something is definitely wrong.

Posted by: Cat Fan | Nov 26, 2013 11:59:57 PM

I can understand very well why coach Clifford prefers lately playing Adrien over Biyombo. It's not because of more talent, or more heart. But Adrien is much more experienced than Biz, he knows how to play the game and contribute (in spite of his lack of size) at a level that Biz evidently didn't reach yet. Experience matters.

Still, Biyombo needs to play.
You shouldn't leave such a rebounder/shot-blocker, with his defensive potential, on the bench, game after game. He needs to continue developing, and practice only won't do it. I see Biz as part of this team's future (not as a trade asset) - as a rotation player, contributing as a rebounding/defensive specialist in the first place, who can also bring some scoring when he's set up open under the basket, or in transition.
With a view to future seasons, he needs to play.

Posted by: Sandy | Nov 27, 2013 12:27:57 AM

Pls. Anyone should be able to see the difference . Biz is lost on offense unless he's camped out under the rim . Even then it's a prayer . He can't pick and roll . He can't do side screens and not be in the way . He has no clue about offensive spacing and of course walks , fumbles and misses .

Adrien ain't all that but can defend up top by showing and recovering to his man . He rotates way better . He defends the pick and roll way better . Bizs on ball defense is terrible . Adriens is much better . Biz is clumsy but a better shot blocker . I bet the players are overall relieved .

Posted by: Iron man | Nov 27, 2013 4:24:58 AM

The next to go is Kemba . He scored 28 but let a bum score 21 on him . This is the norm . He had 2 turnovers and only 5 assists when an average point gd would have 10 . He's a sg and doesn't fit . He continues to miss open teammates forcing shots at the rim . When has he thrown any lobs or back doors ? When ever he runs the offense , he over dribbles not having a clue how to facilitate . Pack him up and wait for Marcus Smart , a big strong , pass first defending point guard . It's time to admit that runts don't fit the overall scheme .

Posted by: Iron man | Nov 27, 2013 4:30:34 AM

Iron woman, I think you must mean Sessions. Without Kemba, this team would be very, very bad. BTW, the average assist for a PG in the NBA is 7, so Kemba is right where he needs to be. Get off his back. He is not the problem. Lousy draft picks, rookie coaches, and no super stars on offense is this team's problem.

Posted by: D.W.G. | Nov 27, 2013 6:57:53 AM

It is funny when people hate on Kemba. Put him on a team that can spread the floor with shooters and he would be unstoppable. He can go by defenders. Hit pull up jumpers and if he had any shooters around him, would have 10 assists a game. The Celtics were game planing against him. You don't do that if a guy can't play.

Posted by: James | Nov 27, 2013 7:44:30 AM

I like Jeff Adrian and i'm glad to see him getting a chance but I don't see him matching up with David West tonight. This experiment will end sooner than later.

Posted by: NUCAT | Nov 27, 2013 8:40:12 AM

Iron man, Jeff Adrien has the game savvy that Biyombo doesn't have at this point. That's experience. That's why I wrote about Biyombo' defensive potential. It's not that he's an accomplished defender (I was criticizing his defense in past comments too). But he has the potential (for interior defense, which is what you most need from a center; perimeter defense, it's a different issue), and it won't come to much unless he plays.

IF after this season and the next one, he's not taking his defense to a higher level, then you draw the conclusions. Not now.
Now, he should play. I think that he has the potential to become a very useful rotation player.

About Kemba, it's baffling how you look for negatives only. On your "runt" theory, I already posted this: Kemba Walker is listed at 6.1, same as Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, Mike Conley and Raymond Felton.

Of course, I never denied that size matters, and being taller helps both in offense (seeing the court better) and in defense.
But, to dismiss a player because of size only, that doesn't make sense - and that's the point of the examples I brought.

It's true that Kemba plays as a shoot first PG. But "shoot first" is not "shoot only" - which is what I saw in your comments.
He's also facilitating for teammates. He passes to cutters, he does drive and dish, he looks for open players. But, we have a problem with players who get open shots and miss a lot.

We don't have many good finishers. We don't have many consistent scorers in this team. Big Al is still not 100%; also, learning to play with him is an adjustment (from how the offense was run without him), that can't click right away.

We're not at all in a position of saying "look at all these scorers we have, they're just starved for the ball, because Kemba and Sessions won't let them have it!"
Heck no, it's more like: how many games of scoring in the 70s would we have, if Kemba and Sessions didn't take so much of the scoring upon themselves?!

Posted by: Sandy | Nov 27, 2013 10:03:28 AM

Player development happens best in winnable games. Otherwise pressure is off both teams, opposition plays down, and no one's learning anything. So you've got to put all the young players (Walker, MKG, Taylor, Zeller, Biyombo, even Henderson) in games that are winnable both to develop them and to evaluate their talents under resistance. If that means benching one or more of them on occasion so that the other guys can develop in a competitive atmosphere, then that's what you've got to do. Signing Jefferson makes the most sense in this light because, even when we don't win, he makes games competitive.

Biz won't be the last of the young guys unexpectedly benched, but over the course of the year, all our young guys will have a chance to develop in a competitive environment.

Someone like Adrian might also become a tradable chip (good for a second round pick or a late first rounder to the right team in a championship hunt) by getting time to showcase his ability to rebound at an elite level. Think if the Spurs had Adrian rebounding at this level for ten minutes a game in last year's Finals. That would have negated some of those plucky Heat offensive rebounds, limited the Heat's possessions, given Duncan a couple extra minutes to breathe, and prevented Ray Allen from having one more shot at the win. The Bobcats are not at the stage in development where specialists like Adrian or Biyombo, for that matter, can push us over the top, but some other team always is, and we could use an extra draft pick even if it means letting Biyombo sit on the bench for a few weeks.

Unfortunately Ben Gordon is in a different situation. Although some team might want to rent his talents, he becomes (to have value) the focus of the offense (similar to Nate Robinson) when he's on the floor so showcasing him costs you player development, and teams know no what he can do. Harder to trade his contract because salaries need to match, and we don't want to take on someone with a longer deal. So he sits.

Clifford is doing everything right at this stage of the growth cycle. Finally the Bobcats seem to have a long term plan, and there are pluses and minuses this year to making the playoffs. Either way, we make the playoffs next year and go from there.

Posted by: Jeff | Nov 27, 2013 10:14:06 AM

I wonder what Cody Zeller's Plus/Minus is?

Posted by: Oates | Nov 27, 2013 10:25:20 AM

anybody paying attention to individual +/- stats is just showing how ignorant they are to statistics. simple as that. it's a flawed statistic. good to know how dumb our new coach is early on.

i think it was james harden or jeff green that finished last in the league in +/- one year coming off the bench and then finished in the top 10 the next as a starter.....something along those lines.....somebody find that article for me.

jeff adrien's a good ball player. he's a veteran. he's supposed to be more confident and comfortable in his role at this point....he's 27. benching biyombo is wasting development on the guy that isn't a part of the future. it clearly didn't work for utah sitting their 2 young bigs so I don't know why we're trying that strategy. it has consistently worked however, to play the young talent through their growing pains until they figure it out.

john wall has lost A LOT of games thus far in his career.....anybody want to bet that he and beal don't figure that ish out pretty soon and start rolling off playoff appearances?

not playing biz and not playing MKG enough is disgraceful. it's a waste of elite talents. same to be said about zeller. I was cool with zeller getting 15-20 mpg while biz and mkg were playing 25+ but now? you got 3 top 10 draft picks 21 and under wasting away.

they might as well trade them now since they clearly don't know what to do with them. i'm sure sacramento or orlando could find some veterans to swap. okc would probably do a perkins for biyombo and haywood deal. why not?! i mean since we've got jeff adrien and everything.

Posted by: charlottean | Nov 27, 2013 10:29:18 AM

The Bobcats are currently 4th in the East. If the playoffs started today we would have home court advantage during the 1st round. I can't believe I just typed that.

Posted by: apauldds | Nov 27, 2013 10:53:34 AM

Player efficiency formula:

((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)).

If this is the formula Coach Clifford is basing his decision on then have to somewhat. Biz is still raw but he has obviously improved this year in the rebounding and turnover (he's catching passes he used to drop)category. The problem with Biz is still his free throw shooting, passing, and scoring. But nowhere in the equation is there anything for altered shots or forced turnovers.

Posted by: NUCAT | Nov 27, 2013 11:05:18 AM

((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)).

If this is the formula Coach Clifford is basing his decision on then I have to somewhat disagree. Biz is still raw but he has obviously improved this year in the rebounding and turnover (he's catching passes he used to drop)category. The problem with Biz is still his free throw shooting, passing, and scoring. But nowhere in the equation is there anything for altered shots or forced turnovers.

Posted by: NUCAT | Nov 27, 2013 11:07:11 AM

So +/- explains Adrien over Biz. Whats the excuse for Taylor over MKG? MKG has a much better +/- than Taylor.

Posted by: STH frustrated by Cliffords rotations | Nov 27, 2013 11:08:34 AM

Spacing. Taylor provides needed spacing. Too many of our players are at their best close to or driving, slashing to the basket. This has resulted in two or three guys bringing their defenders with them to the paint, closing it down for everyone. We need to either trade or let a couple of those guys go and swap them out for three point shooters.

How awesome would Marcus Smart be as a combo guard off our bench?

Posted by: Jeff | Nov 27, 2013 12:02:12 PM

No team is going to trade down with Parker, Wiggins, and Randle available, but depending on its needs, a team might trade down after that in a deep draft for a couple of our picks so we can get Marcus Smart, which would give us a tough lineup even before you consider our cap space for a free agent.



Posted by: Jeff | Nov 27, 2013 12:19:18 PM

taylor's 27.5% 3 pt shooting isn't spacing anything. MKG's 50+% from the floor INCLUDING THE JUMPER HE'S BEEN KNOCKING DOWN and his handles in transition are way more beneficial to the team.

nobody with a brain limits the development of THAT 20 year old.

and again with the stats - adrien's career numbers are much lower than these low sample size numbers he has thus far this season. he has 11 blocks thus far but had 27 all season last year. any statistician knows you don't trust a small sample size compared to a body of work.

i'm absolutely blown away at how dumb this all is. i thought we were past this kind of decision making.

Posted by: charlottean | Nov 27, 2013 12:45:33 PM

Adrien is not the answer good role player. Biz has Ewing on of the best big man coaches around and still has no offensive game. He will be out of the league in 2 years.

Posted by: steve | Nov 27, 2013 1:33:04 PM


You're dreaming...

MKG has his a grand total of 11 jumpers /above outside the free throw line, 0-5 on threes.

In 15 games MKG has hit a grand total of 13 shots outside the lane...that's fewer than 1 per game.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Nov 27, 2013 1:33:36 PM

Adrien is a work horse & has earned the mins he is getting so you cant be mad. He could take mins from Zeller for that matters. Im glad we have a coach that thinks play the best players.I like Biz but Adrien has made the most out of these extra min. Biz needs to learn how to be an inforcer like Adrien had been of late

Posted by: tre'4boi | Nov 27, 2013 1:43:19 PM

Taylor's three point shot will start to fall. He's got the right form. Just takes time to transition from college to NBA three. Look at Danny Ainge. Shot the three at less than 30% his first four years in the league. Then it happened:


In that includes some years when he wasn't playing on the Celtics anymore (and therefore not wide open). Taylor has at least as much upside as Danny Ainge. Give him shooting opportunities at the 2, and he's going to be better than the Danny Greens and Sefolosha's of the world. Probably a top ten shooting guard.

Posted by: Jeff | Nov 27, 2013 1:59:03 PM

Good post tre'4boi. What a novel concept, giving the most minutes to the best players -- Who woulda thunk it!!

Some interesting points Jeff. At least Taylor is willing to jack up a 3 and at a minimum the opponent has to provide some cursory defense...

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Nov 27, 2013 2:46:45 PM

Who's this genius "Iron Man" that believes an "average point guard" averages 10 assists a game. Where, in the Polish League?

Posted by: A.J. | Nov 27, 2013 4:15:36 PM

Eastern Conference Finals preview tonight at the future Hive. On the way. Can't wait.

Posted by: Johnny | Nov 27, 2013 5:28:42 PM

Just the facts: Kemba ranks 39th in the NBA at 4.2 assist per game. Josh McRoberts ranks 33rd with 4.6 assist per game. McRoberts has 64 total assists, Kemba has 63. Chris Paul leads the league with 12.5 apg and has 188 total assists.

Posted by: Jon | Nov 27, 2013 6:22:42 PM

Kemba is a scoring point guard. That's how he's wired and how the offense is structured. I think that can work if you have a guy like McRoberts who plays point forward, the end result being they average a solid 8.8 between them. What I don't understand is having another scoring pg coming off the bench unless he can score via threes similar to when Harden was with the Thunder or someone like Marcus Smart. The problem with Sessions is that as games become more competitive his drives to the lane only work in transition. After that, good defenses close off the paint, and he's not very effective. He'd be better starting on a team that doesn't need him to facilitate like the Knicks or Heat where he could just dump it into Carmelo or James and get out of the way. Even then, he might be a guy that sits the last few minutes of a game when teams pack in the lane.

We need a three point shooting backup pg.

Posted by: Jeff | Nov 27, 2013 6:43:40 PM

Our 5'11" 2-guard masquerading as a PG will be a point of concern, just a matter of when. When playoff time comes (if it comes) and the game is reduced to half-court sets they'll just put a taller-rangy defender on Shorty (MKG's man, because he doesn't have to guarded outside the lane) and tarp him and shut him right down...

...this is going to be a problem, watch.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Nov 27, 2013 8:24:13 PM

That'd be the advantage of drafting a big pg this year. Worst case scenario, Kemba slides to the bench and takes on the scoring change of direction role similar to Nate Robinson only with more consistency. All the same concerns have been raised about Robinson, but he scores in the playoffs particularly off the bench against second string or winded first string defenders. Either way, my guess is Kemba is likely to stay for the long term unless another team is willing to overpay him.

Most of these young guys are valuable to our team at the right price, but is there a guy with max money potential on the roster? Do we need such a guy to compete in a star driven NBA? Would it be worth using cap space from Gordon and Sessions to sign Carmelo to a max money deal? Would he do that much better with the Bobcats roster around him than he's doing with Knicks? If not, where do we find a star, and if we develop one from the draft, at what stage will these other guys be when that future draft pick finally reaches his potential?

We need to add a star this summer if we want to play for a championship with this roster. Every team, other than the Larry Brown Pistons, has had at least one superstar when it won it all.

Some day we may wish we drafted Parker or Wiggins. Who knows, the ping-pong balls bounce right and we keep failing to beat playoff teams, maybe we'll draft one of them after all.

Posted by: Jeff | Nov 27, 2013 8:49:06 PM

Jeff, your first paragraph makes all the sense in the world -- draft a tall PG and bring Shorty off the bench.

As for Carmelo, under no circumstances would I want that guy on our team. Actually, if we had Durant & Westbrook or Wade & Lebron, and Carmelo was the 3rd option, maybe. Carmelo does not make his teamates better and will never win a championship as the lead dog.

But your point is spot on...until we get a top-5 player we have no chance of competing for an NBA championship...

...and the problem is, what top-5 player would want to join the worst franchise in NBA history?

Unless, Air Min sells, and a new owner starts with a clean slate and completely changes the sorry ways of this franchise -- this is what we really need.

Otherwise, just making it to the 1st round is our realistic upside...and that's ok.

Interesting read here: http://www.82games.com/dennis.htm

Blueprint for an NBA Championship Team
by Dennis Gallagher

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Nov 27, 2013 9:12:24 PM

As the stats show, with few exceptions, it boils down to that top-5 player if you want to win it all. On the one hand, I think making small steps as the Bobcats are taking could in theory lead to signing such a guy as the team builds credibility, but the realist in me says it's not going to happen and not because of management. Whatever management, most top players (if they don't resign with the team that drafted them) will go with New York (limelight), Miami (lifestyle), or LA (limelight and lifestyle). Someone might point out Howard, but I don't think he's top 5.

So that leaves us with drafting a star. Not impossible. Look what the Pacers did in the middle of the first round with George who might end up a top 5 player (or might already be there in some people's eyes). What we need ideally is our 3 first round picks this year, better basketball thinking when it comes to drafting, and a little luck that one of those three picks turns into a star.

For better or worse, losing tonight and the other night to Boston may have been steps in the right direction. I could see us making the playoffs this year, but I don't think the credibility is worth as much to us in the long run as the draft pick.

Posted by: Jeff | Nov 27, 2013 9:38:38 PM

Good analysis Jeff.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Nov 27, 2013 11:26:21 PM

What is the status of Ben Gordon? If he is not in Charlotte's plans why not trade him back to the Bull's. We would pay for his salary this year and Chicago can just forget about the draft pick we owe.

Posted by: LeeCutler | Nov 28, 2013 7:30:57 AM

What is the difference with Thomas last year and Gordon this year? Dunlap sits Thomas and Rick Bonnell kills him. Clifford sits Gordon and Rick thinks it is fine? At least Dunalp started Thomas at the beginning of the year and gave him a shot. Feels like a double standard.

Posted by: James | Nov 28, 2013 11:44:27 AM

so we're arguing based on hypothetical progressions of the older players.....but ignoring the hypothetical progressions of the younger players......

because that makes sense and everything.

nastar......that's less than 1 jumper made per game from a guy that's playing 27 mpg and taking 7.3 shots per game making 3.7. you're marginalizing the number of makes without giving it any context.

taylor has made 11 3's. i'm sure he's made a few more 2 pt jumpers also, i'm too lazy to look it up at the moment but knowing how many of his 54 made fg's are 3's and dunks......it isn't many. so our "elite" shooter is making about the same number of jumpers per game, and giving you SIGNIFICANTLY less points per possession used than MKG.

oh and you want to harp on kemba's or MKG's free throw percentage? taylor's is EMBARRASSING right now.

clifford can't make an argument based on numbers if he doesn't understand how numbers work. and clearly nobody in the front office knows how numbers work either (including cho) or they wouldn't be allowing this. adrien's -9 early on last night might have thrown some water on their fire.....but truthfully.......had VERY LITTLE to do with adrien's play. so while he got promoted by an idiot misreading the data, he's going to get demoted for the same reason.

all this did for me was expose clifford's level of intellect early on. one month into the season and I can tell you this dude is on par with ron rivera when it comes to coaching. great assistant because he knows the game, knows people, knows how to motivate. horrible strategist because he's not very smart logically. much better suited as an assistant.

ask larry bird or frank vogel who they would take between biz or adrien. not even long term. RIGHT NOW for their playoff run. ask kevin pritchard. guarantee you all they would take biz now and biz again for future consideration.

Posted by: charlottean | Nov 28, 2013 7:04:24 PM

let me add that biz is leading the team in PPP although with a very low usage rate.

at age 21....i would hypothesize (based on trajectory of like-young big men) that if you upped his usage level and ran more offense to him, that the results would sustain.

there would be an immediate drop off in the short term because of his inexperience in getting the ball frequently. but long term, the experience gained would increase his effectiveness. ultimately......big men are more effective scorers than mediocre shooting wing players. it's just more likely they draw fouls and get dunks. pure numbers. it's what makes al jefferson so valuable offensively. the same could be true about biz. no, he is not on the skill level that al is.....but neither is roy hibbert. neither was mutombo. neither are 90% of big men. but mutombo scored 16.6 points a game at age 25 and scored double figures throughout his career and delivered great points per possessions used.

he has cut down on his turnovers BIG TIME which are the achillie's heel of the big man on offense. he has upped his shooting % by being more confident with the ball and having his bread and butter moves and sticking with them.

why not develop the 21 year old big man that could give you jefferson-like efficiency (although way uglier) on offense, while giving you wayyyyyyyyyy better defense? can't learn how to swim on ground.

Posted by: charlottean | Nov 28, 2013 7:15:52 PM

Basketball is a meritocracy, jobs are won.

I think Larry would take Adrien RIGHT NOW, no dount in my mind.

You've hit oan a fabulous point...

...Air Min, Yes Co, & Cho...

...cannot compete with the likes of Bird, Walsh & Simon -- ever.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Nov 28, 2013 7:26:45 PM

anybody would take adrien. just like anybody would take biz. But biz OR adrien? i don't think many people would go adrien over biz. jeff adrien in heels maybe.

i would put money up that the bird's, ainge's, morey's, presti's, and buford's have been watching this play out and maybe even calling to gauge biz' availability.

jeff adrien is not the only jeff adrien out there. philly has about 5 of them, san antonio pulls a few out every year, dallas too.

biz? under 9 million a year and available? i need names. don't think there are any. maybe theo ratliff. i mean asik WANTS out, but morey isn't giving that dude away. only difference between asik and biz is that asik is like 28, slower, rebounds a little more and turns the ball over......more.

Posted by: charlottean | Nov 28, 2013 11:08:12 PM

and that's bs about jobs being won.

guy gets drafted to a team that already has a franchise player at his position. he can outplay that guy to death.....he'll get traded.

circumstance is such a big part of it. politics too. you have idiot coaches like clifford who misread the stat sheet and give jobs away based on that misinformation. you have idiot gms like rod higgins and david kahn who draft guys their coaching staff doesn't believe in and then trade them for scraps after it "doesn't work out" in 2 years.

derrick williams doesn't deserve a starting nba job? are you kidding? he looks horrible behind kevin love and alongside kevin love but when love has been out with an injury? dude balled. everytime the dude plays 30+ minutes he gives you an efficient 20 and solid rebounding. he couldn't possibly do anything to earn a starting job sitting behind arguably THE power forward on a max contract.

now there's no telling what happens in sacramento.....based on how stir crazy the new guys are over there.......but we could be looking back in a few years like "mbah a boute for williams? and stern didn't block the trade as a last move before retiring?"

did cory higgins or chris smith earn their jobs?

Posted by: charlottean | Nov 28, 2013 11:15:58 PM

If Ewing can't develop Biz no one can. He will be out of the league in 2 due to no offense efficiencies.

Posted by: jay | Nov 29, 2013 3:57:57 PM

@charlottean, thank you for giving me the hope that I am not alone! I thought I was the only on that noticed how inept this new coach is. Adrien is 6-7 and old by NBA standards. I have always appreciated what I've seen from him but he is nobody's long term answer so what is the point of playing him all that time. It is time wasted. They are not beating good teams with him on the floor and they are bearing beating average teams.
What is also not talked about by the hopelessly uncritical Charlotte sports media, is how on a team that is among the bottom of the league is scoring, 3 point shooting, and free throw percentage. The coach refuses to play Ben Gordon who has career averages 43% from the field, 42% from 3, and 85% from the foul line. He can not find 10 minutes a game. Really?
My lineup of which I have yet to see is Kemba, Gordon, MKG, Jefferson, and Biz. It doesn't have to be the starting lineup but it is a lineup that should be playing most of the time.

Posted by: moboythunder | Nov 29, 2013 5:08:37 PM

I disagree with Biz sitting. Is that cool?

Posted by: Season Ticket Holder 2 | Nov 29, 2013 7:08:34 PM

Well played Mr. Biyombo.

Posted by: Jeff Adrien | Nov 29, 2013 10:23:37 PM

Adrien sucks compared to Biz!

Posted by: create | Nov 29, 2013 11:23:49 PM

Are you guys really arguing about whether Biz or Adrien are the better backup centers on the Bobcats. I think we have much more serious problems. The Bobcats are the worst shooting team in the NBA...we need a player that can shoot consistently from more than 12 feet and not play matador defense.

Posted by: MJ | Nov 30, 2013 9:50:03 AM

clttn...you hit on a good point. Of course Cory Higgins didn't earn his job, Air Min, Yes Co. & Cho gave it to him. Therein lay the problem, your whole thesis is predicated on Moron Management, destined to fail. Clifford is legit, players earn their positions with legit basketball folks...but Clifford can only play the cards he is dealt, so he's set up for failure too.

Ditto Smith, Dolan is another prime example of Moron Management.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Nov 30, 2013 10:52:15 AM

my thesis has nothing to do with bobcats management.

your "thesis" was that the nba is a meritocracy which it is not. ask julius hodge. you are contradicting yourself.

clifford is NOT legit. he's playing to win TODAY with a team that was built to win TOMORROW. therefore he thinks he's helping himself keep his job, but he's actually ruining the franchise's future (and by default, his own) in the process. the best thing he could do to keep his job....is an impressive looking 10 seed in the east this year on the back of his young guys. coaching MKG and biz and zeller and kemba and taylor up to the players they COULD be and using jefferson, mcroberts, and sessions and henderson to steady the tides.

clifford wasn't set up to fail AT ALL. he was actually handed a very good deck of cards. but he's playing them to win now when he can't win now. he's going all in on the wrong hand. dude has a pair of Ace's and he's acting like lebron doesn't have a royal flush. like indiana doesn't have a straight. like the spurs don't have 4 2's.

playing adrien over biyombo based on individual plus or minus is not "legit" and it is not giving the job to the most deserving person. he figured it out quick when that same stat dropped for adrien but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT HORRIBLE STAT.

best player on the worst team vs. worst player on the best team.......the latter will always have the better plus/minus even though he isn't the better player. any coach that looks at that stat is a "metric" is an idiot. simple as that.

the fired the legit coach last year because the undeserving guys weren't getting playing time. remember?

Posted by: charlottean | Nov 30, 2013 3:56:06 PM

The league is a meritocracy, with legit and rational/sane management and coaches.

Air Min, Yes Co. & Cho -- and Dolan -- are not legit, or sane...hence, they "give" players jobs.

Clifford is the real deal, legit, and he ain't slurping down any nonsense from the spoons of AM-YC&C...

...hence, meritocracy.

Whine all you like but the box scores prove that I'm right, and you're wrong.

PS...you do realize Smith was sent to the D-League a while back?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Dec 1, 2013 12:54:19 AM

he's still getting an nba guaranteed check that he didn't earn and still on the knicks roster for the time being.

and no they don't......if biz was so bad, how did he start every time al was out and manage to win 5 games as the starter? he was holding us back right? we needed to give adrien that role so we could get back into draft pick contention right? little 1-2 slide smartened coach up a bit.

there are plenty of players with merit who don't play. especially foreign born players. rudy fernandez didn't ccome close to getting a fair shake. victor claver looks to be in the same boat. sergio rodriguez - same thing.

for every demarcus cousins, there's a rashad mccants. the guy who didn't get in trouble per say, but nooooobody liked. yet he could fill it up with anyone.

not to harp on UNC players, but hansbrough comes to mind. that guy has consistently been a SOLID nba player. and while he struggles to get noticed.... kris humphries makes 12 million a year. they are the same effing player. most people would argue that hansbrough is better.

it's not about merit at all. it's way more about luck and politics. i know way too many guys that never get nba looks yet they dominate in europe and outplay nba talents on the regular in the summer leagues.

and there's countless guys that get drafted high that don't deserve it.

and there's countless jimmer freddette's who could easily be a solid contributing rotation player in this league if he had been drafted elsewhere.

that's not merit. merit would be guys getting paid based on how well they play and not playing based on how much they got paid based on either what they did in the past or what someone wrongfully projected they would do (tyrus thomas, gana diop)

Posted by: charlottean | Dec 1, 2013 2:34:46 AM

As usual you mix apples and oranges.

Minutes are a consistent currency, Hansbrough plays more than Humphries.

Paychecks are a complete cr*pshoot often completely disconnected from on-court results.

Get a clue, moron.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Dec 1, 2013 10:20:48 PM

"and there's countless guys that get drafted high that don't deserve it."

Even a moron gets one right now and then, and you got that one right.

One specific player comes to mind :0)

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Dec 1, 2013 10:24:13 PM

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