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January 10, 2014

Charlottean Carl Scheer to be honored by Denver Nuggets Jan. 25

The Denver Nuggets will honor Charlottean Carl Scheer, a two-time executive there, during a Jan. 25 home game against the Indiana Pacers.

            Scheer was the first general manager of the Charlotte Hornets. He now works in marketing with the Bobcats helping with, among other projects, the rebranding to the Hornets nickname next season.

            Scheer worked with the American Basketball Association Carolina Cougars, then went to work for the Nuggets in 1974 helping in the team’s transition through the ABA-NBA merger in 1976.

Back in the ’70s Scheer came up with the slam-dunk contest the NBA still uses at All-Star Weekend. He hired longtime Nuggets coach Doug Moe and acquired former N.C.State star David Thompson.

            Scheer nurtured the Hornets through their arrival in Charlotte in 1988, then moved back to the Nuggets in a business-side position. After becoming an entrepreneur in minor-league hockey, Scheer joined the Bobcats in a sales-and-marketing role.

 

Posted by Observer Sports on January 10, 2014 at 07:27 PM | Permalink

Comments

15-22.

brooklyn has now passed us. detroit is tied. new york is a game back. boston, cleveland, and philly all within 2.5 games.

playoffs isn't happening. they better start playing towards the future and not this year. how are those bloated early season defensive numbers looking now? funny that the most glaring variables there are mkg and taylor being out, and biyombo playing less.

the good news is we don't have to worry much about losing our pick to chicago. the bad news is.....nobody has told our coach.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 10, 2014 11:15:59 PM

Nice comment, NASTAR could sign on it.
I said it before, with "fans" like you, who needs enemies...

"how are those bloated early season defensive numbers looking now?"
A purely malicious comment. You're always so self-centered, so self-absorbed, that now you feel vindicated for having said that the pre-season great defensive stats were meaningless.

In reality, after just 8 pre-season games, the Cats' defense was among the best in the NBA for 30 games of the REGULAR season. In the last 5 games, it became consistently bad.

Again: very good defensive stats for 30 regular season games, bad for the last 5 (which is your reason to celebrate).

- - -

I know your tired story line: you're not a hater, but you care about the future, and damned be the real present.
Always, the plans in your head matter to you more than what really happens.

In the meantime, in the real world, three players of our "young core" are starters (with one of them expected to be back soon from injury), and the two others cannot justify starter minutes at NBA level. This is the NBA, not the D-League.
Hopefully, Cody will, in a few years - but it's not a certainty.
The way he's playing now, his 17 mpg average is maybe 2-3 minutes less than what he needs to get as a developing player. This is an insignificant difference, and any playing time above 20 mpg for him on average would be a pure waste of time.

Same for Biz, as far as the minutes go. No way he can justify playing more than 18 to 20 mpg. He played 20 minutes in Minnesota, being himself: already a very good rebounder and shot blocker, but not a factor in offense (even playing against the T-Wolves reserves).

The difference between Cody and Biz is in potential.
It's my honest hope that in two-three years from now, Cody will get stronger, and that will help him become a really good NBA power forward. It's not around the corner.
As for Biz, offensive talent is not part of his upside. On this aspect, time (whether as minutes played, or years of experience) is not, never was and cannot be a factor. You can develop potential talent, you can't create it where it's lacking.

Briefly, what we're doing for developing the young players is what is needed - or, very close to that. But we're far from developing into a "contender", although this roster already has a 2nd, a 4th, a 7th, a 9th and 12th overall Draft picks. Developing them, and getting another high draft pick, is not gonna make this team surge to the top.

Various adjustments - trades, free agency, draft (including trading up in the draft, which is always possible without any tanking) - all of the above will be needed, and these changes may take a few years.

As long as these years are not sacrificed to some ridiculous plans of the "let's get worse now to be better in the future" type (which is what was already done since Gerald W. was traded before the deadline of season '10-'11), but, on the contrary, as long as the team will continue to try to improve gradually, I'll be happy, in spite of all the bumps on the road.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 11, 2014 2:43:49 AM

Why is the Bobcats' defense weaker in recent games?
I think Sessions is right to say: "fatigue". He's not looking for excuses, but playing defense with the intensity coach Clifford demands, running back for the transition defense, in combination with road trips - these things can explain fatigue.

I'm not suggesting that the team should give up on investing a great deal of effort in defense, and focus instead on offense, on outscoring opponents. I'm only trying to understand the recent failures.
Steve Clifford is right, that (giving up on strong defense) isn't gonna work for this team. You need to get the job done at both ends of the floor, and it's the emphasis on defense that brought success earlier in the season. I can only hope that they'll be able to break out of this slump, and play again the way they did when they got to a 14-15 record.

But it's not only the defense that needs to pick up. Last night, Chris Douglas Roberts, Tolliver and Kemba had a very good offensive game (the first two were above expectations), and Hendo was good too. That's positions 1 through 3 (because this is what Tolliver played).

But we got very little offensive production from the "bigs": Jefferson, McRoberts and Zeller were all below expectations (about Biz, I mentioned above).
We can't win like this. Especially Jefferson, who is needed as one of the two top scorers of the team, became rather passive in the last two games.
When his defenders were all over him (Gortat, then Pekovic), which was the only thing to be expected, he wasn't trying, for most of the time, to put any of his moves on them (I was especially waiting for some spin moves), he wasn't doing anything bold to beat the defense; he was either kicking the ball out on the perimeter, or settling for contested jumpers. His offensive work for these two games: 9 FG only attempted per game, an average of 7 ppg at 33% shooting from the field.
Big Al needs to get his offense going again!

Can this team be back to the defensive prowess of its first 30 games? Can Big Al be again a dependable scorer? Can Josh McR and Cody contribute more scoring, as they did in games when they helped the team win?

If yes, this will be again an exciting season. But if not, it's gonna be a loooong one, dragging unbearably to the ... draft. I hope the former will happen.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 11, 2014 3:32:15 AM

The Bobcats really need to get a clue. It just feels llike every team in the NBA has an idea of where they are going except this one. How can you have all those top picks every year and have no great talent?

I hear the coach on how this team needs to play D to win, but they don't have the talent. They need a player to build around and I am not sure where they get it. The draft sure hasn't worked out. Bringing in players like Diop, Thomas, Jefferson, etc hasn't been the answer. There have been no real all stars among the other players that have come and gone. Who the hell is evaluating these players and how they fit into the teams future plans every year? How is it even possible to miss on players this much?

Hopefully they didn't make another mistake on Jefferson, but it is sure starting to look like it.

Posted by: Dave | Jan 11, 2014 6:31:56 AM

Sandy & Dave

Very good comments....Charlottean...not so much.

We have had plenty of opportunities in the draft yet missed on better players drafted lower than our picks. The problem has not been in our failure to give our draft picks minutes, its the poor quality of our evaluation of talent both in the draft and in free agency. The players we have are good complementary talent but not up to the stars required to win in the NBA. Instead of looking at what our position in the draft will be or what players will be available in free agency, we should be looking at what scouts or general managers are available. We have changed coaches many times but I think that Sam Vincent would look good coaching the Miami Heat. We had opportunities to pick Michael Carter-Williams, Trey Burke, Bradley Beal, Damian Lillard, and Andre Drummond over the last couple of years. Regardless of how we try to develop our picks or which coach we have they are not going to develop into better players than the ones we missed on.

Posted by: MJ | Jan 11, 2014 9:58:05 AM

Y'all keep looking at the results and blaming the input. The process has been and continues to be the problem. There was emphasis put on kemba last year and look at how that worked out. He improved drastically. That same emphasis needs to be placed on mkg, cody, and biz.

Sandy there'nothinng I could say that you would agree with. The defense numbers were good as we had good defenders on the floor. They play less, the numbers drop. How is that not factual?

This is NOT a good team. The record evens out as the schedule sample size gets larger. How is this NOT factual? Whate the eff amI saying that is so offensive? That jefferson hasn't won in his career and isn't winning again? That he wasn't a good fit for the players around him? That dDunlap was a better fit for developing and teaching the young guys?

I mean what am I saying that is so offensive and makes you so sensitive?


There are several teams that are far better built today and far better built for tomorrow. We did the right thing rebuilding and then we got impatient and are currently ruining the rebuild.

You guys think mkg and zeller are busts because we are making them look that way. Just like morrison, ajinca, augustin, henderson, felton, walker and biz before them. There is a common element here......we aren't developing ANY of them correctly or patiently. MKG appears to be the most impactful variable we have and you guys rant about how bad he is.

zeller has every bit the post game jefferson has yet they almost never post him up. Brilliant coaching. Let's have our uber-skilled and athletic young big launch 20 footers all day


and you want to compare what I say to nastar's constant irrational hate towards jordan? i'm talking basketball. I'm talking facts. Our basketball management has been horrible. They are in win-now mode and 15-22 with a soft strength of schedule. And facing tougher opponents in the near future. Andwe aren't getting better for the future.

mj - you constantly want to repick the draft. Those guys were given opportunities to prove themselves. drummond is the only one that was just poor decision making. He was an elite talent with risk and we passed. Everybody else? Comparable talent to what we selected. We just haven't put guys in position to succeed. Ever. Goes back to okafor playing the 4 and felton playing shooting guard. We keep ruining elite talents over and over and over and the fans keep blaming the picks because the results are bad.


Look at demar derozan. Absolute weak talent prospect. Great athlete. Given a ton of minutes, a ton of patience, a ton of coaching and the guy actually looks like a player now. Look at derrick williams, never gets an opportunity because he's always behind somebody. When he plays, he balls.

You draft a guy top 10, he's gotta play. They don't get better without playing. Game situations. Even if it's europe or d-league, they gotta play. Guys aren't in their prime until 25 so why do we coNstantly expect 20 and 21 year olds to be finished products?

Idiotic management, idiotic fanbase. Perfect pair. playoffs? Are you effing kidding me?

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 11, 2014 11:01:20 AM

Charlottean

I actually do agree with you about Zeller. We are not developing his post up game. I have seen him make some incredible moves around the basket but miss on the finish or get blocked. These skills need to be developed. I can't understand why they think that he will be an outside shooter. The outside shot will come in time but Cody should be working with Ewing on the same moves that Jefferson uses on a nightly basis.

Posted by: MJ | Jan 11, 2014 11:16:32 AM

Charlottean. I don't disagree with you about player development. The Bobcats are not very good in that area. Changing coaches and philosophy every year will stunt the growth of any player. But it is also obvious they don't draft well either. That s a combination that is as bad as you can get for a team. How does it make sense to bring Jefferson into this mix? Another mistake. Going young, then bring an old 28 year old. One year we want to be up tempo next year slow it down and grind? Draft a bunch of young athletic players and then make them walk it up every possession or worse yet not even play them? Just looks like a mess. I could not even watch the second half of the game last night and I love hoops and I am a fan of the team. Still have not completely paid for that massive Thomas mistake. Eventually will give up that pick and are still paying a player that is out of the league.

Posted by: Dave | Jan 11, 2014 12:45:07 PM

Dave, the Boob's aren't good at a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g.

N-e-v-e-r have been good at anything.

The reason it's "possible to miss on players this much" is because the owner is a m-o-r-o-n. A two-year old child making choices randomly would have produced better results.

The answer to your questions, and wants, is n-e-w ownership.

Until ownership changes you will be p-e-r-p-t-u-a-l-l-y disappointed.

This is r-e-a-l-i-t-y.....sucks for the s-l-u-r-p-e-r-s.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 11, 2014 1:11:39 PM

Left out an -e-...tricky typing like that ;)

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 11, 2014 1:13:02 PM

I don't agree with that. I think any owner can be successful, Donald Sterling has proven that and he was bad alot longer than MJ. Just hire the right people and let them do their job. Yes there are differnces in LA and Charlotte, etc. but the fact remains that Sterling is completely incompetent and now has a good team after dcades of futility. MJ seems to do one thing well. I was at the Utah game. That was the most incredible thing I have ever seen at the halftime of any game. Very well done. Of course the entire Hornets thing will be a complete waste of time and money if he can't improve the team.

Can't say I will be going back any time soon to see them in person. They are not an exciting team to begin with, now they are not even competitive.

Posted by: Dave | Jan 11, 2014 3:50:58 PM

MJ - how would we know if the picks are wrong if we aren't developing them?

all of these guys have pedigrees. ap all american's, mcdonald's all americans, consensus top 10 picks. they come in with resume's, game tapes, incredible combines, tons of promise. all of them have made incredible plays, all of them have shown that they are nba talents.

we don't get consistent results from any of them because we don't put them in positions to grow. what's the difference between chris paul and raymond felton? paul "got it" and felton didn't. you think any of that had to do with paul playing from day one while felton played behind and then alongside brevin knight his rookie and sophomore year? or that he had bickerstaff and vincent weren't the right coaches for him? or that with sean may out, he had no pick and roll partner until diaw came over.......the variables are endless.

but the talent coming in? yes, there's a reason that paul went 3 and felton went 5. but there were pros and cons to both. felton absolutely could have been on the level of chris paul if put in a position to thrive. we saw that when he played under d'antoni before the melo trade. d'antoni is a good coach for point guards (as we're seeing now with kendall marshall). doc rivers is a good pg coach. tom thibodeau is too. byron scott too. sam vincent? not quite as much.

having stability and clear roles goes MILES for guys. none of our draft picks have had that. none. kemba playing behind augustin when we had no intentions of keeping augustin hurt BOTH of them. wasted year. assimilation is about 90% of it.

fans feel like and label guys a bust because they're playing 10-25 mpg instead of 36 like their peers. coach isn't going to play the 20 and 21 year olds more because he feels like he has to win to keep his job because of the track record of our management with coaches. it's an absolutely vicious cycle and the picks themselves keep getting blamed. you could randomize the draft 100% with the consensus top 60 prospects every year and the guys that go to good franchises would succeed more so than the ones that come here.

MJ did the right thing in blowing it up and he has done everything to undo that with short sighted moves thus far this year. it is NOT too late to right the ship. there's half a season left to salvage. there's trade chips that could be turned into one big time young talent like a monroe, hayward, turner, or gordon.......or into more assets to be used in the offseason or next year.

jefferson at 13.5/year when hickson was a better fit and went for 5. that sums it up right there. dunlap getting fired because players like ben gordon, tyrus thomas, gana diop, brendan haywood, reggie williams, byron mullens, ramon sessions, etc. gave him bad reviews for working them too hard and "overcoaching" after doubling the win % while getting younger.

how anyone could watch this kind of behavior and think it's in the least bit competent is beyond me. it's historically bad. prior to this season, I thought jordan was finally "getting it" and it's clear that he is not. I thought cho was moving things in the right direction and either he's following orders to do the opposite, or he isn't anywhere near as smart as we all thought.

they have some special talents on this team that could contend if augmented and the right lead guy joined the group. and they are doing everything possible to eff it up. that's it in a nut shell.

who in their right mind would be OK with the results thus far given that they are in "win-now" mode? sandy - you think i'm happy because it's validating everything I said preseason?! oh yeah....i'm ecstatic. thrilled that we might figure it out just late enough to be picking (not picking) 11th and have wasted the entire year playing mcroberts and jefferson.


and yeah....i'm still blown away that after seeing the kid LIGHT UP the d-league (and play the point with precision) that seth curry didn't get even a 10 day contract. because pargo is so irreplaceable. we're supposed to be looking for the diamond in the rough, not sitting on our hands hoping jefferson was going to carry us to the promise land that he has never reached or come close to in his 9 years prior.


what the eff are they doing? what's the plan? why on earth would anybody think a sub .500 playoff birth is a good thing? this isn't the nfl where you win 4 games in a row against different opponents and you're the champ.

what the eff are they doing?

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 11, 2014 4:37:04 PM

What are they doing? I don't think even they know. They seem to change course every 5 minutes.

What the hell is Higgins doing? Has he won any where or ever drafted an all star in his career? He has been quiet ever since he put his son on the team. Probably the most unprofessional move in NBA history.

They hire Cho and he goes into the witness protection program never to be heard from again.

Dunlap? Who knows what really happened there. How long before Clifford suffers the same fate?

I don't care what they do, just come up with a plan and stay with it for more than a year.

Posted by: Dave | Jan 11, 2014 7:52:25 PM

"Just hire the right people and let them do their job."

True statement -- problem is Air Min thinks he knows better, clearly he doesn't.

There are other economic impediments here as well but the bottom line is a Tiger doesn't change his stripes, His Minimumness won't either. Post-retirement MJ has been the sucker every time he sits down at a table.

Good observation on Higgins, Cho, Dunlap.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 11, 2014 8:35:37 PM

"what's the plan?"

The Plan has no clothes ;)

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 11, 2014 8:38:00 PM

SMH!

Posted by: DShtg!! | Jan 11, 2014 10:21:15 PM

that augustin guy.....what a bust. just think, "we could have had brook(en) lopez instead."

we're only 4 games out from a guaranteed top 5 pick. keep up the good work jefferson. 13.5 million to unintentionally intentionally tank. BRILLIANT. i see the plan now, cho. BRILLIANT. exec of the year contender.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 11, 2014 11:13:52 PM

I now see who has a life plan and who don't!
At least as far as ur classic life plan!
YOU know with kids.

Posted by: DShtg!! | Jan 11, 2014 11:25:36 PM

not my comment

Posted by: DShtg!! | Jan 11, 2014 11:27:23 PM

charlottean, what huge rants, and how little realism in your posts.
And of course, you avoid all the most inconvenient (to you) points I made.

Our defense: you have sneered again about the pre-season, forgetting that before the last 5 games, we had one of the best NBA defenses in the regular season. Fatigue is a factor in the loss of intensity, MKG being out is another.

Developing the young players: "we aren't developing ANY of them correctly or patiently". OMG, what an awful franchise this is! And you wonder why I compare you to NASTAR? He has his favorite theme, you have yours, but in your conclusions you meet, all too often.

Felton: as soon as MJ got rid of Jeff McInnis, Raymond played very well already, as starting PG (last 25 games of the Sam Vincent season). He kept being starting PG and playing well, his development as a young player has been successful (in spite of the initial difficulty, due to playing SG), but he failed in that playoffs series.

I always supported him, but I never thought he's in the sane range of talent with Chris Paul (from court vision, through leadership and consistency, to shooting).

Ammo: he couldn't fit under Larry Brown. But Phil Jackson wasn't any better fit for him. He tried then with the Wizards, and was waived. OK? Two other franchises didn't think he's the talent they need.

I was glas for him when he did well with Red Star Belgrade. So, development in Charlotte or not, he managed to raise his game. But he was too impatient, he didn't continue to develop a good resume in Europe, he came back here right after the lock out, after he played only about a couple of months in Europe, and no team wanted him. When he went back to Europe, everything went downhill for him. Even there, other players were preferred over him.
Briefly, he can blame himself only for that stupid impatience, that wrecked his pro career just when it started picking up.

Ajinca: slow reaction time, which resulted in poor defense and rebounding in spite of his size and athleticism; that's why Larry Brown lost his patience with him.
True, with experience he improved while playing again in France. Also true, there is room for him in the NBA. But, as a back up only. It's not like we missed out on a star.

D.J. Augustin: please use Rick Bonnell's article as a reminder that he did poorly with two other franchises after leaving Charlotte. How come they didn't think of him as a great find?

Back to our team now, he actually was given the opportunity to lead the team, and he was actually doing really well under Paul Silas. I remember posting comments at that time, that I was glad that his development, that indeed wasn't working well under LB, was now on the right track.

He was the Bobcats' starting PG for two seasons. He became pretty at good at it.
But I also remember agreeing with the management back then, in 2012, that he's not gonna be an All Star, and if Felton wasn't gonna be our "point guard of the future", so wasn't DJ.

I really wish him only the best with his new team. But to blame "lack of development" for somebody who was starter at his position for two seasons, under a coach whose approach was just right for him - this is completely false.

Yes he developed, that gave him the background to perform at the level we saw last night. But then, the team wanted to try to find somebody with a higher potential. Is Kemba fitting that bill? It's still hard to tell.

You go on to mix in your list of "franchise victims" Kemba, Hendo and MKG. This doesn't even begin to make any sense. All three of them are starters for this team.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 12, 2014 3:24:43 AM

I made it very clear that I believe in Cody's potential, but also, that for him "time to develop" means years, not minutes played. He knows how to attack inside, he got experience doing this two years for Indiana, he has good offensive skills, but he's not very successful yet with his inside offense at NBA level.
He takes lots of jump shots because 1. his interior offense is still weak and 2. because he has the potential to be a pretty good mid range shooter too (as shown by his 75% FTs shooting).

Let's put things in the right perspective.
In the first place, "they" are NOT turning Cody into an outside shooter.
Of all his field goal attempts, 58% are short range (less than 9 feet from the basket). And about 50% are close to the rim (less than 5 feet from the basket).
He's making 45% of his attempts from less than 5 feet from the basket, and 37% between 5 to 9 feet range. Compare this to Jefferson, who's making 57% of his shots from less than 5 feet range, and 42% from between 5 to 9 feet.

With him, the main issue is developing his physical strength, which will make it easier for him to play good interior offense against NBA-caliber defenses; he needs to become capable to get close to the rim more frequently, and also to finish at a better rate.
At this point in his career, it takes a lot from him (physically) to go through stronger defenders, and then no wonder he's not always able to also finish.
So yes, patience is needed with Cody, but I also maintain - for the reasons explained here - my opinion that playing him more than 18 to 20 mpg at this stage of his career is nothing but a waste of time.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 12, 2014 3:34:47 AM

you're reading the shot chart on cody. watch the tape. the shots at the rim coincide with offensive rebounds. where are his offensive touches coming? oh i forgot - you don't watch the games.

you're talking something about preseason. i haven't talked about preseason defense, since the preseason. what i DID say, was that as the prime defenders minutes went down (mkg, taylor, biz, cody) the scores started skyrocketing. as the schedule toughened up, the stats softened up. that's all i said. that's just stating the facts. and i said the personnel deserved as much credit as the coach for the stats. that made you all teary eyed and emotional.


ajinca might not be more than a backup. but we gave him away so that we could take back MORE bad salaries. if he had been developed properly, we could have seen more games like the 17 and 7 he had the other night. we gave up on him. he weighs like 30 pounds more now. that's called age. we gave up on a 20 year old skilled 7 foot first round draft pick to take on eduardo najera's 2 year pension plan from mark cuban.

morrison we've gone over - you ignore the idea that jackson didn't have a spot for him on his championship roster and did the deal to get rid of radmonovic. we gave up on the guy too early. that ruined his career, not him trying to come back to the states too early....that was a comeback attempt years later. he wouldn't have been in that spot.

augustin was here 4 years. 1 - solid rookie year, but backing up and playing with felton. 2 - hardly playing behind felton, major regression. 3 - given the starting job - played solid. 4 - kemba's drafted in his contract year, cho was hired, rebuild announced, writing on the wall.

did he have a horrible year last year? he did. is he playing his balls off right now? he is.

felton had a decent career that should have been better. same with henderson. walker probably could have been omitted but he was horrible and horribly misused early on.....before that other guy developed him.....

mkg? 25 mpg for the #2 pick year 2? really?

zeller playing 9 minutes tonight was acceptable to you? biz? seriously?

please show me all the successful nba top 5 picks/top 10 picks who sat for a few years and went on to be franchise players. most did not. most were given the chance to acclimate and learn from mistakes. you can't learn to swim on dry land ask the fish. show me all the 1st team all-rookie's who play 16 mpg. show me all of the late bloomers. they are far more infrequent than those who were pushed into the water and came out year 2 looking like a vet. then show me all the careers claimed to be ruined by "too many opportunities" and "too much playing time" and "too much patience by the front office"

seriously....what world are you living in? i would be fine if it were at least 20 or trending that way. or he actually got the ball in places he can score consistently from to build confidence. it's trending the other way. 5-19-11-11-15 in a blowout where jeff adrien got some run in his spot - 9. that's the last 6. it would be tolerable if mcroberts was going in. he's not. he looks like the starting power forward on a 15-23 team that could be 15-27 next weekend. 17-25 at best. somehow the 20 year old that everyone wanted to label a bust a few weeks ago and who the coach was playing far too little, is supposed to be the saving grace for this "playoff run".


our strength is our defense, guess who isn't good at defense....mcroberts and jefferson.


again you braindead meffer you can't grasp the concept that the results are due to the process, not just the input. nature vs. nurture. it's not all one way or the other. you sound like the opposite of nastar acting like there isn't a major problem with this franchise's management. and you say ish like "OMG" to let me know the name matches.

how you could possibly continue on the wrong side of this argument after tonight is beyond me. no rose, no deng, no butler and we play the starters to the max and can't get a win. 15-23 in win-now mode and i'm offending you for ranting about the obvious (which you disagree about).

"OMG"

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 12, 2014 6:40:02 AM

It is amazing that the Bobcats could not beat a Bulls team missing all those key players. Even playing their starters all game. Realistically, what Bobcats even start for the Bulls? Maybe Kemba only because Rosé is out. What we find when players leave this team is that they are average at best. Only played because of the lack of talent on the Bobcats. All this time and there in very little talent on this team. How is that even possible? They are so far from being a "playoff team" it is not funny.

Posted by: Michael | Jan 12, 2014 9:01:20 AM

The problem that the cats have is a lazy front line on defense. MKg helped that out in the early part of the season. That is what happened to the D ..and because Taylor is out....we will never b good until big Al becomes the starting four man because he can't defend his shadow at the rim....we should have looked somewhere else in the off season. ..

Posted by: shane | Jan 12, 2014 7:30:21 PM

@ ch. You're badly rattled, you poor loon.
"oh i forgot - you don't watch the games". You're talking like a bigger idiot than you actually are, being rude for the sake of being rude.
You haven't seen Cody going on some power drives to ther rim, sometimes making them and sometimes missing? No? What were you watching? But this is precisely what I mentioned in my previous post.

"i haven't talked about preseason defense, since the preseason."
But you posted this: "how are those bloated early season defensive numbers looking now?". Early season? Bloated defensive numbers? Exactly the same approach you had in your comments on the pre-season.
Except that you posted this after 35 games (after the Minnesota game), with only the last 5 of them being bad defensively.

No "bloated numbers": the Bobcats defense was among the NBA best for most of the season so far. But of course, you can't digest that, it runs against your rants.

No amount of your usual ramblings can plaster over the facts: Felton and Augustin have developed well as young players before separating from this franchise, after each one of them was two seasons the starting point guard.

Phil Jackson consistently preferred Shannon Brown (who was a 25th pick overall, and was thrown in the Radmanovic trade as small change) over Morrison, for two seasons.
Then, Flip Saunders gave him a chance, and then waived him. So no, it's not just "mean ole Larry" who "didn't like" him. But also, he had another chance to redeem his career, if he hadn't kicked it away (when he left Red Star too soon, without having any better promise).

Had this been just a "Bobcats' mistake", he would've been in the league right now. He had his chances.

About Cody, you argue for the sake of arguing. Yes, the best hope for him is to be a "late bloomer". You sure remember I wanted him with our 4th pick - against all the "experts'" mock drafts, which had him much lower; the Cats using the 4th pick overall on him was seen as one of the major surprises of this draft. One of the main reasons for that is his relative lack of strength for interior playing.

Your arguing with me about him becomes even more ridiculous after I said that his playing time should average 18-20 mpg, and you say you'd be fine with 20. So, what's the argument?
His actual average is 17 mpg; I already said, insignificant difference. You don't know where it will go, and especially, what it will be at the end of the season.
IF his average PT (not just a few games) will keep going down, then I'll have something to say (like I did when Biz was benched for Adrien).

- - -

The Bobcats' Chicago game was evidently much better than the one in Minnesota.
We stayed close to the end, the defense was better. Kemba and Hendo were great and Al Jefferson was again much more aggressive in offense, with good results.

But how come we didn't beat them?!
Try this: even without Rose and Deng, they are still a better team than the Bobcats.
Before Rose got injured again, they were contenders - not just another team in the playoffs mix. They are 3-0 since trading Deng, and in their last 10 games they are
8-2.
They are the better team, but we were close, and when they'll come to Charlotte, we may have a chance to beat them.

- - -

Listen, besides having some foolish ideas that you enjoy repeating dozens of times per month, you go on with your potty mouth.
Today's treat is "braindead meffer".
I don't really care about your insults.
They are truly meaningless.
But still, this is filth, it's still an atmospheric pollutant. I always tried not to stoop to your level, until now.
Trying to maintain a civil dialogue with somebody who doesn't understand the need for it (as you said, and then went on to prove, countless times) stops making sense at some point. So, I spiced my own post with a few pieces of your own medicine.

Will you go on with this worthless and meaningless insults sowing game? You'll get it right back, with due amplification (as in "those who sow wind will reap storm").

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 12, 2014 9:22:51 PM

At this point, Biz and Zeller have GOT to play more. More and more it seems that the memo is out of Jefferson. He's not an adept passer, especially from the high post and he is just a woeful post defender. Gibson had his way with Jefferson last night and we already know about his abilities as a rim protector. At least Biz was able to play decent low post defense on the Bulls frontline. I know it's tough because he just contributes nothing to the offense aside from setting the occassional nice screen and catching (sometimes) the ball to dunk. At this point, however it's necessary to keep wear down the opposing teams bigs because they are not working at all on offense now.

We also need to get Zeller going. We need to be putting him in a position to at least try to score from the low post. Why not run a few plays for him in the post with the second unit to see if he gets the hot hand? His skillset doesn't take away from the game like Biz but his current role as a "stretch" 4 is terribly ineffective.

That being said, I'm not one to attach myself to young players just because they're young. After watching the Panthers fool themselves into thinking that Brandon LaFell is a serviceable #1 receiver, I am not down with developing young players who have done little to show that they can add to the team's ability to win. That is looking like Biz right now. Zeller has not even played 40 games and we really haven't played to his strengths but if he continues to look like a tire fire than I won't have any allegiance to him either.

With the exception of Felton, I feel like we progressed every time we got rid of a young player who hasn't progressed. That goes for DJ, Ammo, Ajinca, Thomas, and Okafor (who was a good player but far too expensive). The fact of the matter is that when they received significant minutes we were not a good team and it was evident we weren't going to be a good team after for awhile with those guys as our best players. When we acquired better, more cost-efficient players...we won.

Posted by: cornchip | Jan 13, 2014 1:30:34 PM

Sandy, charlottean is sick. In the other thread he's talking about MJ raping other people -- doesn't think it's any big deal. Says since we're not in Russia anything goes. Guy is a moron.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 13, 2014 1:31:59 PM

Charlottean deserves a sodding medal for the efforts he takes trying to get some sense into you guys.

Posted by: the Dude | Jan 13, 2014 5:22:14 PM

Charlottean feels like the tank should be on for what's perceived to be a fantastic draft.

…there isn't a Duncan/Garnett/Bird here and the plan shouldn't be to suck for another year…. It's a deep draft, indeed, but Wiggins is nowhere near a savior by any stretch until he gets in the league and does it.

We should be playing our young guys though, a helluva a lot more than we are. -Especially Biz-

Thought the AJ signing was OK in the beginning, but I cringed and shuddered the other night, though.

Posted by: the Dude | Jan 13, 2014 5:41:26 PM

sandy - half the stuff you cry about are things where i'm saying something......and you know it's true. and you argue because you have this idea that i'm an A-hole and that you should argue with me.

my whole argument is based on the fact that we don't have a good team. you JUST SAID chicago should beat us even without rose and deng (and butler?) because they are a better team. sooooo? what did I miss.

we agreed about zeller pre-draft. I had him second to Noel (who you did not agree on). I was thrilled draft night. Lacks strengh? I keep hearing this from everybody, yet the guy was one of if not the strongest 4 man in this draft class. and again and again and again I repeat that he's 21 and most dude's are not lebron or dwight. normal human beings aren't fully grown until around 25. specifically in the bulk category. but lacking strength? no. he might lack balance in his drives. he might lack technique in finishing at this level. he might lack savvy and awareness in his approach in dealing with the opposition. most of all, he lacks an nba resume and we ALL know that refs give preferrential treatment to veterans who they know and have a relationship with. this has been proven statistically and studied (mostly by major sports betting organizations and gamblers) over and over and over. (don't tell me you want to argue with that).


we're on opposite sides on morrison. i get that. but he got plenty of chances? how many times post injury did he play more than 20 minutes in an nba game? he was the number 3 pick in the draft. you call chances getting signed? how many times did jeremy lin get signed and waived before the knicks gave him PLAYING TIME. morrison lit up summer league to the point where a completely neutral crowd was chanting MVP for the dude. the guy balled in europe as you noted. he could have stayed there and gotten paid big money to continue his career but he hated living there. it's not for some people. I got a boy that just got back from Russia after playing like a month and he just hated it. wasn't worth the money. You're also completely ignoring the stigma that he carried with him being labeled a "bust". You don't score 30 points in an nba game as a rookie on accident. shannon brown played the 1-2. artest/ariza, odom, bryant, luke walton all played the 3. Phil Jackson and Kobe were both asked about it and both of them said it was circumstance and that morrison balled out in practices. Phil just had his guys already and clearly it worked for him. If kobe is option 1 and pau option 2......why would you go with morrison over artest? that would have been horrible. even I (probably the only morrison fan in charlotte) would go with artest and walton over morrison with that lineup. artest was the defender. guys like walton and odom were playmakers for the 2nd unit. radmonovic demanded a trade, morrison supposedly requested an increase in playing time or a trade and the 2 gms got together and said "eff em both".


i have unpopular opinions. i'm well aware of that. I'm only a D when people dispute facts. You're just so overly sensitive that you basically pick fights with me over dumb ish like language or phrasing.


the dude - i don't think tanking is the right phrase. I want the guys that are actually part of the plan that we supposedly have to play like they are part of the plan and they can try and win as much as they can win. there's no way we make the playoffs with the current starting 5 playing big minutes. we actually stand more of a chance if we shake things up. I want them to shake things up.

I keep hearing about how everyone has cooled on this draft class and it's insane. Nobody has stood out like a lebron or KD but they JUST started conference play. not to mention there are a ton of guys that look like bosh/carmello level. Embiid, Parker, Randle specifically have been very impressive. Wiggins has been very impressive at times. Everyone is disappointed that he isn't durant instead of looking at what he is: a really high level prospect. If a guy like that slips to 6-8......we'll be the beneficiaries. Marcus Smart has been very impressive. Then you have exum and saric who are absolute studs that none of you guys have even seen play.

I just want to see a plan executed. I want to stop seeing our franchise get mismanaged and start seeing some real basketball instead of depressing mediocrity and failure. I'm wrong for that?


are we going to keep blaming the players that we draft? there's only one common denominator to all of that.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 13, 2014 8:10:10 PM

As to defense , it starts w the pt gd and ends w the center . Both are terrible even when they try . Dj got in the paint and killed Kemba . He scored , his misses were put back , he got assists or hockey assists . Jefferson provides no on ball or help defense bc he's slow and is no rim protector . Bigs w size push him out of scoring spots , then he's worthless bc he's a ball hog and the ball movement stops w him .

Then you have the picks of Cho . He missed out on guys who not only were more talented but were are far more impactful . Leonard . Lilliard . Carter Williams . Equally , bc he never played ball , his picks don't fit . Kemba a sg as the pt gd of the future . Biz , who ceiling is horrifically low and for sure is a bust . Mkg who can't shoot and Mp said will take 3 yrs to fix . Zeller , a weak center who they're trying to turn into a pf who has missed 28 of his last 34 shots . If your lottery pick can't score big in a playoff series , do not pick him . Period . That's the standard . Trade the pick and look in free agency or make a trade . Not one of them will ever do this . Then the Jefferson signing was wrong . Overpay Miksap , keep at least 6 or 7 m m and add a back up big strong , defending pt gd or vet sf that can defend and shoot some . Then you still have a rim protector in Biz in the starting lineup whc is critical . And you have McRoberts off the bench w the second unit .

Posted by: Iron man | Jan 14, 2014 9:06:22 AM

Trade for Lowry w the Biz pick . Draft Kemba to come off the bench . Draft Drummond at center . Sign Milsap at pf . Sign a sf three ball specialist to split time w Taylor . Kemba , McRoberts , Sessions ,
Tolliver and Zeller off the bench .

Posted by: Iron man | Jan 14, 2014 9:37:53 AM

"Then you have the picks of Cho . He missed out on guys who not only were more talented but were are far more impactful . Leonard . Lilliard . Carter Williams . Equally , bc he never played ball , his picks don't fit . Kemba a sg as the pt gd of the future . Biz , who ceiling is horrifically low and for sure is a bust . Mkg who can't shoot and Mp said will take 3 yrs to fix . Zeller , a weak center who they're trying to turn into a pf who has missed 28 of his last 34 shots . If your lottery pick can't score big in a playoff series , do not pick him . Period ."

Well said.

There's a reason Cho had 3 jobs in less than 12 months with the 3rd one being offered by the single most inept franchise in NBA history, and he's likely the lowest paid guy it he league amongst his peer group...

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 14, 2014 1:16:26 PM

^^^^ again, if those guys had been drafted here, they would not be successful. the franchise is the problem.

how would drummond look getting 16 mpg? kahwi leonard and MKG are a wash talent wise. kahwi would look like MKG if he were here and MKG would look like kahwi if he were there.

i don't know what you're talking about with the trades and signings. way too far fetched. all we need to do is play the young guys, leverage the tradeable older guys, future draft picks, cap room, young talent to land a top flight player OR ride it out and add picks and be patient until one of these guys breaks through. Someone ALWAYS DOES in those circumstances. ALWAYS. it has never failed when you put 5 top flight prospects that like each other and like playing together - together with a coach they respect - and give them 3 years to grow together. we keep seeing it work over and over and over since 2004 and we keep not doing the same thing. it's the only way you eventually find those franchise guys that wear the jersey for 10+ years and lead the team to contention and run up the ticket sales. you don't find that guy, but playing the already established, mediocre guys. And as much as i'm talking about jefferson, i'm talking about mcroberts more so. and tolliver and whoever else takes ANY minutes from MKG.


I agree about cho's talent being inflated. that said, he hasn't been anywhere near the rod higgins, david kahn, (john hollinger?), billy king stratosphere. but he's also nowhere near the top either. he might not be near the middle. or he might just be suppressed by the idiots above him and just comfortable getting paid after being fired in portland for not liking doing what the owner wanted.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 14, 2014 2:15:11 PM

charlottean, there are a few points on your last post on which we really shouldn't have an argument - if only you were not so stubbornly clinging to some old cherished ideas.

I'll say it again, after we had no significant gap in some previous comments regarding Cody's PT, what is the arguing about?
"Lacks strengh? I keep hearing this from everybody". "normal human beings aren't fully grown until around 25. specifically in the bulk category." And then "but lacking strength? no."

Huh? Why would you even mention adding bulk in the next few years, if not because... Look at the player, see how he's built, see him going against other big men. It's not gonna work very well, at both ends of the floor, until his strength (especially upper body strength) will be significantly increased. There is quite a gap (physically) between most bigs he had to face in college, and mature NBA players. His skills are way ahead of his strength, again, relatively to interior playing in the NBA. The refs are what the refs are, and there is no change in sight. But that's not the main issue for him. Do I need to repeat that I expect him to develop into a really good NBA PF within a few years?

"we're on opposite sides on morrison." Not really. He's better than what most people think of him, and he's one of the many who didn't get lucky in his NBA career. He didn't, because, in spite of his offensive talent, he was suspect on defense, athleticism, and heck, mental toughness too. Still, there are guys who, overall, don't ever contribute to their teams more than he had the potential to give, but were preferred by NBA executives and coaches. Probably, because his weaknesses are less acceptable in this league than those of some players who are behind him in talent and skills.

However, my point was that he's not a Bobcats' "franchise victim", and he certainly had his chances with other franchises. With the Lakers, Shannon Brown was above him in the rotation, because of his athleticism and defense. We saw sometimes the combination SB (at 2) and Kobe (at 3). If Phil Jackson had liked Ammo, we would've seen instead Kobe (at 2 - his regular position) and AM (at 3). Even with Artest as starting SF, and Odom getting some minutes at 3 (though, he was mostly the 4), that was a possibility.
And then, There was Flip Saunders...
So again, arguing on this is not needed, as far as I can see.

- - -

The real argument that won't go away is about tanking. Almost all players, and all coaches, want to win; the few players who feel otherwise don't belong in this league. As for coaches, not only playing to win is in their blood, but also, we've seen "coaches of the year" fired in this league; so, this HAS TO be a factor, for all coaches.

Playing to win is, by its nature (by the nature of the motivation) NOW - not in fantasy future seasons. That's all.

The Bobcats need the right balance between playing to win, and not letting the lottery draft picks be wasted on the bench. Three of our lottery picks are starters, and 18-20 mpg for Cody (this season) and Biz (the way I see his upside, on which I already posted above), would be that good balance. They are now at 17 mpg; no big difference.
IF their PT will steadily go lower, than I'll comment.

But not playing to win (which includes the coach's right to determine the best line ups and rotations), and playing instead with an eye on the draft prospects, with that I'll never agree. I already mentioned what are the various ways of improving a team without any "tanking" (including trading up in the Draft).
This is our real argument, and this won't go away. You'll feel vindicated when we lose, I'll be happy for every win, or at least close game (as with Oklahoma, or Chicago).

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 14, 2014 4:34:06 PM

morrison WAS a franchise victim. that's where we ARE on opposite ends of the spectrum.


the zeller part is misunderstanding. when someone says "he's too weak and a clear bust, we need to dump him now and cut our losses" i point to his combine numbers and his build compared to others at 21. is he grown man strong at 21? no. no doubt his strength will IMPROVE. but he's already stronger than most 4's in this league. I bet he's stronger than mcroberts in any measure. we aren't disagreeing there, just unclear in what i was trying to say. the problem to me is far more rooted in how he's being used and not being able to get any calls.

as for the playing time thing (i'm looking up to find what I said)........yeah I was talking specifically about the last several games which i listed the minute totals for. The whole point was that (and you could look this up) I was cool with the amount he and biz were playing early on......mid 20's or so. Jefferson comes back, I could see low 20's. But now there's been nights where they've hardly played and those mid 20's nights are long gone. that average is split between a 23 and a 15. The early part was fine but it's trending in a HORRIBLE direction. that's what i said - although I wasn't clear when i said "if it was at least 20 or trending that way" or whatever I said.

I am not pro tanking in the sense of not trying to learn how to win. that is NOT what i am a proponent of. I AM however a proponent (big time) of continuity starting with a youth movement that usually coincides with losing a lot of games while the young core figures the game out, grows their skills and their bodies, the refs learn their names, they get coached up and gain respect and confidence from each other and for each other.

we don't have the horses right now. we have a very easy way to get another horse. that we desperately need. and it requires losing 2 or 3 more games than we will by playing the veterans extended minutes. and truthfully we might win more with the young guys playing at this point. the whole point is......winning with the mediocre vets gets us nowhere. winning (or losing) with the guys that are going to be here long term DOES add value.


as you said in your post and I said above......it's a problem with the young guys playing times trending downward (which they are). It's also a problem that jefferson and mcroberts are now......10-19 as the starting front court? i think it's actually 9-19 where we won a game that mcroberts missed. it's def not all about jefferson, mcroberts is a big part of this. we have NEVER seen biz and al play at the same time as far as I know.


it's not even about intentionally being bad this year at this point. it's about this team not being any good and looking for ways that we could improve it. if we could get a 1st for jefferson or sessions or both, we should definitely be doing so. that could lead to a needed veteran 3 years from now when we actually ARE contending.

8 games below 500 just about halfway through the year in win-now mode where the young guys are barely playing. I want the young guys to play NOW so we can get them ready for next year, where we should ABSOLUTELY be aiming at playoffs. that year and every year following.

there's no reasonable plan that says we should keep doing what we're doing and try and pull of an 8 seed. there's no positive outcome of that. that's been my argument all year and continues to be it.

biz can't score like jefferson, but he sure as hell can get us more possessions to work with and lower an opponents fg% at the same time. that wins games. if we can spend the rest of the season working on his offensive game? there's no value in that? give me 1 game of making biz the focal point. 20 touches on the block jefferson style. would love to see what happens. surely 5 turnovers. but does he go 10 for 15 from the floor on the rest? 7 for 15? won't be much worse than jefferson but he'll more than make up the difference on defense. and there's more value to the franchise long term if he's given those chances. guys don't get better by watching al do it.


does nobody remember how bad anderson varejao was offensively when he was young? and he is/was nowhere near the shot blocker that biz is.


and if by best lineup available you were referring to the lineups that have been used.....then we disagree on something else.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 14, 2014 5:12:50 PM

Biz was absolute garbage last night.

Posted by: apauldds | Jan 15, 2014 9:15:02 AM

not to defend his errors, but he barely played, finished a pick & roll with authority, didn't clock any rebounds but drew a rebounding foul or 2, and no turnovers or fouls. amare did damage on him, but amare's been doing that to eeeeeverybody lately. and he did way more damage against others than against biz.

the dude can't play 9 mpg and look good. nobody looks good in 9 minutes unless it's due to a highlight reel play.

related note, wasn't kendall marshall a bust to a lot of you guys? playing time opens guys up to show who they actually are. you give biz playing time, you probably get 10 and 13 and 3. on 60+% shooting. you give him 9 minutes, he looks out of sync. because he is.


if everybody is passing on bynum, should we NOT sweep in and get a top flight center with injury risk for the minimum? is that NOT the kind of thing that a smart franchise with nothing to lose would do? most contenders won't because of the tax line and already having full rosters. others are tanking and or have a young big. since we don't want to play our young big, why the eff would we not take bynum for a test drive?

and seeing marshall do what he's doing, why the eff would we not waive pargo and give seth curry a run for some 10 days? the complacency in mediocrity (not even) from our front office is astonishing.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 15, 2014 11:03:55 AM

Forgive me if this point has already been made. Cody Zeller has the length of a 6'8" to 6'9" player. Combine that with his slight build/good mobility, and I understand why the Cats are trying to develop him as a stretch 4. I think with normal physical maturity he will be able to apply his post moves by age 24 or so. Hopefully at that point he will be an inside/outside threat.

That said, it'd be nice to see them run 1 or 2 post plays for him when he's being guarded by a fellow rookie or a weak post defender.

Posted by: DeLaQuest | Jan 15, 2014 11:33:26 AM

he's 6'11, over 7 in shoes.....wingspan is his height. that's normal, not below average. problem is.....nba is filled with biyombo types who are freakishly long.

that all said, zeller has an extremely high vert.

i don't think the lack of extreme length hurts him in the post even against elite defenders. skill wins out on the block ask al. weight goes a long way and while zeller isn't slight, he's also not 280. I think you look at how anthony davis has been successful and say "zeller could be a poor man's version" same thing with dirk. maybe you look at the gasol brothers or ibaka (offensively) and draw some from there.

the kid can flat out play though and needs to be getting mcroberts' minutes. and some touches on the post up. mix it up. it's good that they are giving him the ball at the elbow for him to develop THAT. but they should give him some of what he already has to get his confidence up.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 15, 2014 2:33:31 PM

Right, you can't judge a player by a 9 minutes showing in a game. But you can have a realistic assessment of his strengths and weaknesses based on his work so far, in his third NBA season. This is not to say that his development is completed. It is saying that you can know by now what are, and what are not, realistic expectations from him.

Also, you can't infer anything from one player to another. Each one is a different individual.

Biz and Varejao are two different players, beyond the generic statement that A.V. was also a defensive specialist and a bad offensive player in his early NBA seasons. But they are different.

Varejao showed more potential for offense from early on in his career. He played 16 mpg - which makes it tough to get in any offensive rhythm - in his first two NBA seasons, and he averaged about 4.8 ppg. Biz, getting 17 mpg this season (his third) averages 3.6 ppg. Comparing first two seasons (AV) vs. third season (Biz) favors Biz; yet, in slightly less PT (OK, almost the same), Varejao scored 33% more than Biz (and still his offense was bad enough!).

I'll make this comparison even clearer.
Per 40 minutes:
Varejao (first two NBA seasons) - 11.9 p/40; Biyombo (third NBA season, getting about the same PT) - 8.3 p/40.

Also, Varejao, became a full time (every game) starter, playing more than 30
mpg, only in his 7th NBA season. Only in his 8th NBA season he managed to score more than 10 ppg. Only in his 9th NBA season, at 30 years old, he finally had a decent scoring average (14.8 ppg).
But now, in his 10th NBA season, he's back to 8.3 ppg!

Not a very enticing comparison, if that's what Biyombo's development is supposed to look like.

Really, it doesn't do any good to anybody to keep building on wishful thinking on Biz. I made my realistic assessment of his potential (last time, in my first comment in this thread). He's a very nice young fellow, and I'd be glad to say more about his upside, if there was any realistic reason for it.

I'm not with those who call him a bust.
A strong, long and very athletic defensive/rebounding specialist, who can also give some occasional offense, is someone good to have in the rotation.

- - -

Bynum ?! That one, who two teams have just been happy to get rid of ?!
Taking a chance on him, isn't this precisely what the Cavs tried to do for several months, and then, the Bulls thought it's a futility?
Yeah, I know, you're not joking. Trade Big Al, get Andrew Bynum, is there any better way to get ready for the Draft lottery?!

- - -

Kendall Marshall was one of my favorite college players. I'm so glad he's getting now a great chance with the Lakers. It's both pure luck (with all three Lakers' point guards being injured) and well deserved; Kendall has great potential.

But, there is no legitimate comparison between him and Seth Curry, who is a a pure shooter, an undersized SG, and is barely learning now how to be a playmaker (at which Kendall excels) in the D-League.

IF Seth proves through a full D-League season that he can be a dependable PG, teams will take note, and he'll be back in the NBA. I like the guy, but he's not there yet.

It would be a huge mistake for any NBA team to sign him up now, after barely 14 games into his D-League apprenticeship as a point guard. He's still learning this job, and doing it while playing heavy minutes in the D-League is a lot better for his development than playing scarce minutes in the NBA, mostly in garbage time.
Let him grow, for his own good.

IF we could snatch Kendall from the Lakers after this season, that would be great. He'd be the playmaker with the higher scoring unit (plus, he's a better shooter than he's usually given credit for), and Kemba would provide his scoring (and playmaking too) while playing with the lesser scorers. Their playing time could be about equal, and they could also play together some minutes (like Kemba and Ramon now).

I'm usually keeping clear from such fantasy scenarios, but, since, you mentioned Kendall... I think for the Hornets to have both Kendall and Kemba would be fantastic.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 15, 2014 3:30:19 PM

same comp....biz gave you .79 PPP and varejao gave you .96. Only caveat you leave out is that andy was 22 and 23 while biz was 19 and 20.

meanwhile biz is at .95 PPP this season. and that's with a recent regression from slightly higher numbers when he was actually playing.

varejao was just a comp in the sense that he's a serviceable offensive player. biz is a better athlete, better defender and he's better-earlier age wise.

as for marshall and curry........both have dominated the d-league this year and got call ups. one to a team that needed him and the other to a team that didn't. that's it in a box with a bow on it. that's not even debatable.

marshall couldn't shoot, curry couldn't pass (supposedly). both have done both at a high level. you might want to watch some of seth's games on NBA TV and watch him run the point. dude is averaging an efficient 22 and 8. does he have room to grow? absolutely. but he (like marshall) just needs a shot to show he's an nba player. there are plenty of backup pg jobs in the league that he deserves one of. I would argue, he's better offensively and only SLIGHTLY worse defensively than kemba.

bynum wasn't passed on by chicago the way you put it. chicago never intended to have bynum, they have noah. they made the deal to get under the tax. that was the entire purpose. they aren't allowed to sign him for the minimum but i bet they would. Bynum was playing ball this year. Brendan Haywood is worth 2 million but andrew bynum isn't worth 1? really? you want to argue that now? you will seriously argue anything I say.


i say seth curry is an nba level shooter/scorer. NOPE!
andrew bynum is worth a minimum contract. NOPE!
biz would benefit from more playing time. NOPE!
the bobcats aren't contending or even have a good team this season so they should focus on getting better for the future instead of being short sighted. NOPE!

i mean what the eff dude? you are arguing against everything logical. If you want to argue my opinion about ammo, that's another story. i know i'm on an island there. but everything?

i say al jefferson is bad at defense and you disagree.


{testing} - josh mcroberts is not an elite 3 point shooter.


.............disagree?

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 15, 2014 4:47:44 PM

Charlottean:

For once I agree with you....Josh McRoberts is not an elite 3 point shooter! As for tanking, its not up to the players and coach to tank...I agree with Sandy, the young players need time to mature physically and no amount of playing time is going to make Zeller stronger...that will take physical maturity as he ages....by the way, Michael Carter-Williams looked good tonight 20 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists...would look good playing next to Kemba...but that's right its not our poor drafting of players...its our failure to develop them.

Posted by: MJ | Jan 15, 2014 11:20:54 PM

charlottean, you get agitated and stubborn again. You don't realize how this prevents a reasonable dialogue.

"i say seth curry is an nba level shooter/scorer. NOPE!"
False. I said he's a pure shooter, but, being undersized for SG, he needs to develop as a PG in the D-League.
I said that before the season started (while you thought that, even as a small SG, he'd be very useful for the Bobcats), and guess what, that's what he's doing now.

I'm in agreement with every NBA management, that Seth is not yet an NBA player, and Seth himself is doing just what I said months ago is the reasonable plan for him. Of course, he's not doing it because of my post, he's doing it because it's the right thing for him to do.

No need to go hip-hip-hurray after his 14 D-League games. Developing is a process; let it take its time.

"biz would benefit from more playing time. NOPE!". False. I said clearly, he should play about 18-20 mpg on average.
He played less lately, and I really didn't like seeing him benched again for Adrien, in Philly. Also, Big Al's minutes get too heavy. Too much PT results eventually in less energy and less efficiency.
But more PT than what I'd like to see for him won't make him the talented offensive player that he isn't.


"andrew bynum is worth a minimum contract. NOPE!" We don't need him, and no other team offered him any contract so far. The only reason for us to do it (plus trade Big Al, another wonderful suggestion of yours) would be to make a back door cut towards a supposed slam dunk in the draft lottery. No, thanks.

"i say al jefferson is bad at defense and you disagree." I say you and others go to extremes on this point. I say Big Al is sometimes really bad and sometimes mediocre in defense, and on occasion (on some plays) he actually does good things in defense; whether you saw those or not, I did.
I also say that Biz would benefit from more PT than he gets to keep raising the level of his defense, but he's already a better defender than Jefferson.

"the bobcats aren't contending or even have a good team this season so they should focus on getting better for the future instead of being short sighted. NOPE!" This is clearly the most basic disagreement we have. I told you already very clearly, it won't go away.

I reject any artificial plan of the "let's get worse now to be better in the future". We did that after the 2010 playoffs, we collected high lottery picks, and in the process we went 106 games below .500 in the last three seasons. Enough is enough - said Michael Jordan, the coaching staff, the players and the vast majority of the fans.
We need to get better each season, and we are better this season than the last one.

If you don't care about the various ways of continuous improving without any "losing by design", on which I posted too many times already (only to answer you, because I hate repeating myself, just as I hate reading repetitive comments), then OK, that's you.
But don't complain that I don't adopt your plan - which I see as unrealistic, unnecessary and going against the nature of the game.

- - -

Use PPP stats to your liking. Games are won by the teams who score more POINTS than their opponents. In points per 40 minutes played, Varejao was better from the very beginning of his NBA career than Biz is now (at same PT). Yes, he was, as a rookie, a little older than Biz is now. So, how are you gonna have a perfect comparison ?! You won't.
It only reinforces my basic point: you can't infer from one player to another.

And you mention Seth and Kendall together, finding common points, without noticing the big differences between them?! Will you complain that I strongly disagree with you on this?

You're going against the most obvious things: Kendall is an excellent playmaker, proving himself as the starter for the Lakers, and he can also shoot way better than rumor has it.

Seth, the very talented shooter, understands that his pro future is at PG only, and he's learning the job now in the D-League. I wish him the best of luck, honestly, and I hope that instead of some rushed call-up, he'll continue developing there (where the PT is for him now), and eventually he'll be an NBA PG.

Josh McR shoots this season 3 pointers 33%. That's OK for a power forward.

But your "test": "josh mcroberts is not an elite 3 point shooter." is a silly joke. You're only stating the obvious here, and there is no comparison between this obviously true statement and the real controversial issues.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 16, 2014 2:53:58 AM

"But more PT than what I'd like to see for him won't make him the talented offensive player that he isn't."
This was ambiguous in the context, since it came right after talking about Big Al.
But of course, that quote is referring to Biyombo.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 16, 2014 2:58:47 AM

Where are some articles on this horrible burst the team has gone through??

Last night was unreal against Philli.

If our "big" 3 isn't all rolling we lose.

2014 player grades in my mind:
Kemba: solid B+. Shotting well and he get's more rebounds than almost everyone on the team.

Hendo: D. I want to love him but he is either on or not. he never get's bound. On is shotting 50% but when he doesn't the other 75% of the time he shots below 30% it seems.

Big Al: B. Exactly as advertised. And if he was double to triple teamed as soon as he get's the ball his stats would look way better.

Biz: C showing little development but how much is he being played.

Cody: D. He looks lost constantly. Only reason not an F is we could have gotten Benett. Cho was so high on him.

McBob: B+. He shouldn't start and he is only OK but folks he get's paid $3mm (nothing compared to others). Hendo make twice and Cody and MKG much more.

Sessions: C. Driving ball hog but get's some points but only off foul shots as never makes the start of a 3 point play.

The Rest: B. Sadly the others shouldn't even be on a NBA team but Tolliver is a great example of he is a bright light.

Posted by: Season Ticket holder for now | Jan 16, 2014 9:05:17 AM

I invite everyone to check out this list, for a better idea of how length-disadvantaged Cody Zeller is. As you can see, his length of 8'10" reach and 6'10.75" wingspan matches up roughly with guys in the 6'8" to 6'9" range(accounting for shoes, which this site does not). This is a comparison against predraft camp numbers of other first round picks.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=averages&year=All&source=NBA+Pre-Draft+Camp&draft=30&pos=0&sort=

Zeller has nowhere near the length of a Davis(based on measurements) or a Dirk(based on the eye test).

Posted by: DeLaQuest | Jan 16, 2014 11:16:14 AM

It's true that Cody's length is less than that of other NBA players of his height. But - although that was one of the knocks on him pre-draft - I don't think it makes a big difference.

You'd expect this to hurt his rebounding. But, he's rebounding well: 8.5 rebounds per 36 minutes; it's not amazing, but it's good for a PF. With experience, increased playing time, and bulking up, I'd expect some increase in this category.

Here is also a point charlottean made earlier, and where I agree with him: his length most likely does not affect his offense. Skills trump length.

But strength, that's a different issue.
I think we all agree on this: when Cody will be stronger (in 2-3 years from now), his offensive production will be better too. Of course, it's a process, I'd expect slow gradual improvement in this regard.

One more thing: it's true that they don't try at all post-up moves for him (having to do with strength), and maybe it should be done occasionally - when Big Al is resting, and the low post defense is weak.
But, he's trying sometimes those drives to the rim, and that's where the results should improve in the following years.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 16, 2014 12:11:08 PM

43-142 in the Kemba Era.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 16, 2014 12:32:54 PM

Has there ever been an NBA player who has lost more?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 16, 2014 1:51:58 PM

delaquest.....you might want to have a gander at the exact same site's vertical leap, lane agility, and benchpress stats and compare the other bigs.

check out the physics on it......there's a coverage area (you see this more in advanced baseball scouting - defensively) that a person is capable of covering. the mental aspect has to be factored in because reaction time is critical. arm length is one of about 15 variables you factor in.


if zeller has the arm length of a 6'8 6'9 guy, speed of a 6'3 guy, vert of ANY GUY with a 37.5 inch vertical, he can cover way more than the guy that's 9 feet tall 12 foot wingspan and can't move for ish.

his coverage zone is immense. biyombo on the flip side is insanely long (as long as just about anybody) and quicker than a lot of bigs, which gives he and cody similar kind of advantages EVEN THOUGH they both have one or two of the variables (biyombo's height, cody's length) working against them.

sandy - you're saying this is a good team? really? that was one of the things i said you disagreed with and you confirmed it. absolutely insane.

curry should be playing in the d-league with an nba contract and frequent call ups. of those 14 games.......one was the d-league record. so yeah.....he's having a hard time against the 2nd best competition level. no way he's ready to be a role player (as i suggested) at the nba level. again.....gerald wilkins was still a pro. he wasn't dominique, but he was still a pro.

and curry played pg his freshmen and jr. years. he didn't his sr year because of the ankle/shinn injury. read about it. coach K said it, not me. those 8 assists aren't the sign of a playmaker? no?

i separated marshall and curry. the comp started and ended with neither being given a chance and being labeled a certain way.....then someone gives marshall a shot and voila - it's an effing miracle that the dude that can play can actually play. same would happen for seth if ever given a shot. he's an ELITE shooter. like all-time great. kyle korver, steph curry, mark price, tim legler, steve kerr, ricky pierce, dana barros, steve nash type of shooter. there is ALWAYS a roster spot in the league for that dude. look at all 30 teams rosters.........repeat to me that he doesn't deserve a spot on one of them (even if he is on d-league assignment and a developmental project).

as for last night.......i haven't watched the 2nd half yet so i'll refrain from analysis until I do, but yeah.....jeff adrien. I run into the guy all the time and feel guilty knowing that as much as I like the guy and like his game.....he shouldn't be playing. If brendan haywood plays in a game this year where bismack biyombo plays 15 minutes or less without extenuating circumstances.........

i'm done.

augustin - 19, 9 and 5 last night. just one game right? bulls are streaking since adding augustin. they're at 18-19 with 17.6 million wearing a suit and deng salary dumped.

From ESPN: "X factor: D.J. Augustin has been a revelation for Chicago. With a point guard that can drive a pick-and-roll attack, their offense looks transformed. He finished with 19 points and nine assists but more importantly, he controlled the tempo and kept the Bulls' offense above water."

derrick williams gets a few more minutes and what do you know? another solid game from him.

and no ajinca isn't doing much, but inspite of us derailing his career....he's in the league and contributing.

marshall just had back to back games......10 and 16 followed with 10 and 13. WHO IS HE PASSING TO? LAKERS HAVE NOBODY RIGHT NOW.


i'll step out into no man's land again and inform you all that anthony bennett isn't a bust either. if he had been drafted to orlando and been starting or playing ~30 mpg oladipo style he might be having the kind of year oladipo is having.

it would help to have a coach that knows anything about anything as opposed to probably the worst coach in the league who only exists because his w/l record is heavily inflated by lebron.

bennett may or may not work out, but it won't be because he lacked talent. could have been in sacramento alongside cousins doing damage. could have been in philly or new orleans or phoenix. this happens every year. a team spends a top draft pick on a guy they don't invest in development wise and the guy flops and gets labeled a bust instead of the GM/management/coaching being labeled the "bustee"

darko could play at one point. that's why he kept getting contracts as long as he wanted them. there are teams calling his agent RIGHT NOW getting the "not interested" response. he's only a bust because he went to a larry brown team. show me a rookie of the year candidate on a larry brown roster. he's taken second year guys like iverson and prince to the promise land. but he has DESTROYED rookies over and over and over.


somebody will smarten up and give bennett a chance next year. new jersey or new york would be smart to do so. they don't have any picks and they don't have a shot at anybody of his level otherwise. milwaukee could do worse too.

yall keep acting like what i'm saying is crazy but why do we keep drafting consensus top 10 players and conveniently we supposedly get the wrong one every time. that doesn't make any of you think about it further? you can't say it's our scouting when the entire league has the guys pegged as top 10 players. nobody is ever like WOAH what a reach! about one of our picks. never. people have argued one player over another specifically over need or fit but never like "woah they took the worst player ever, 10 spots before he should have been taken"

that never happens. we're taking guys that the next team would take if we passed on him. if we take len, phoenix or philly takes zeller. if we take barnes, sacramento takes MKG. if we take lopez, jersey probably takes augustin. if we take roy, portland DEFINITELY takes morrison. if we make the trade to move up and get paul, felton still goes 5th to whoever.

biz was going 8th to detroit. kemba, probably going to sacramento 11 or whenever jimmer went. ask any of the good gm's in the league. they will tell you that the picks haven't been the problem.

kemba and henderson are the only guys that look good right now. it isn't coincidental that silas made henderson his entire mission and dunlap did the same with kemba? that has nothing to do with it, right?

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 16, 2014 1:57:15 PM

The Charlotte Boob's....where NBA talent goes to die.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 16, 2014 5:38:08 PM

"sandy - you're saying this is a good team? really? that was one of the things i said you disagreed with and you confirmed it. absolutely insane."

What's insane is precisely what you wrote, and I quoted above. When you find a quote from me saying this is a good team, copy and paste it.

I expressed my disagreement with your statement which, although you don't seem to be aware of this, was a composite one, ending thus: "they should focus on getting better for the future instead of being short sighted."
You should know very well that THIS is the most basic disagreement we have, and I was clearly referring to it again (check the sequel of my answer). It's been expressed countless times.

As for how good this team is, or is not, this season, what I wrote was: "We need to get better each season, and we are better this season than the last one."

Very different. So indeed, turning what I wrote into something totally different is quite insane.

And you keep ranting about Seth, ignoring what I said: 1. that you were wrong to say, before this season, that his help, even as a small SG, is needed, and 2. that it's much better for his development to be a full time starter in the D-League than to be playing scarce minutes in the NBA.
It's not at all about "deserving a spot in the NBA", it's about his development as PG.

You certainly forgot that I referred in earlier posts (months ago) to his playing PG in his early college career.
It didn't work well. While Steph converted successfully from SG to PG, Seth went the opposite route, from weak performance at PG to a very nice job as SG for Duke.

That's how it always goes with you: going in circles, rehashing endlessly the same arguments, distorting opposite points of view, repetitive and always more self-righteous than the Pope. You're always right (in your mind), no matter how far off the mark your ideas are, and you'll repeat yourself and keep arguing until everybody else drops dead of fatigue, or disgust, or boredom, or a combination of these.

Always, you're relentlessly trying to impose your point of view, with a total disrespect for other standpoints, and a firm belief that only you are so obviously right, and anything contradicting your beliefs is totally wrong. Partial agreements with others aren't ever enough for you, you have to impose yourself. That's why, you'll never think it's time to end an argument. That notion, "we'll have to agree to disagree", is totally foreign to your mind.

This is CRAZY. Of course, you'll never understand that your attitude IS crazy. Never, it's the only way your mind can work.

Posted by: Sandy | Jan 16, 2014 5:40:12 PM

Be careful Sandy or soon he will find a way to introduce rape into the conversation...

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 16, 2014 6:10:19 PM

so you want us to continue to suck? how does that get us in the playoffs next year?

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 17, 2014 9:39:44 AM

Whoooooaaa....

...Can't Shoot Straight goes 1-6 from the line tonight.

Knoblauch?

I feel bad for the kid.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jan 18, 2014 12:36:03 AM

career 71%. and dealing with a broken off-hand.

the eff does that have to do with chuck?


BIG WIN LAST NIGHT!!!!!!!! - against 10 win orlando.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 18, 2014 1:09:19 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't remember seeing M-CSS-KG or Biz'ness at all during overtime? 26 minutes total between the two of them...what's up with that? I thought they, along with Shorty, were the cornerstone of the franchise going forward?

Posted by: Naslund Starmine | Jan 19, 2014 10:56:55 AM

I also saw miami conducting a layup line when they weren't on the floor.

17-25.


and augustin just shredded the savior MCW (of the redrafters) to the tune of 19, 8, 4 and 3 steals in a blowout win. on 7 of 10 from the field. Chicago is moving up without rose.

keep acting like this dude wasn't a top tier talent that we failed to get anything out of. keep redrafting like the results are the only variable. like circumstance and process has NOTHING to do with it.


zeller and biz are next. mkg too. we're looking at some future all-stars or at the least, long time starters (for other teams of course). team slogan should read something like this: Charlotte, where promising draft picks come to die.

Posted by: charlottean | Jan 19, 2014 11:31:10 AM

They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery -- thanks clttn ;)

Posted by: Naslund Starmine | Jan 20, 2014 11:16:22 AM

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