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February 04, 2014

Charlotte Bobcats coach Steve Clifford on the challenge guarding Stephen Curry and the Golden State Warriors

SAN FRANCISCO – The Charlotte Bobcats survived a 43-point game by Stephen Curry to win a December game against the Golden State Warriors 115-111.

            That and a victory over the Los Angeles Clippers are the Bobcats’ best wins this season. At shootaround Tuesday morning, I asked coach Steve Clifford what he’ll do to try to contain Charlottean Curry tonight.

“What all the other 29 teams do – hope. Only so much you can do,” Clifford said.

“The problem with their team is they are so skilled. They have a bunch of other guys who can have big, big nights. It’s not like you can commit so much (defensive attention) to him.

            Clifford noted that Curry makes 41 percent of his 3-pointers from above the key. That makes the Warriors exceptionally dangerous in the high pick-and-roll

            “That’s how the game has changed. When I first got into the league 4-men were power players. So high pick-and-roll (defense) was a lot simpler,” Clifford said. “Now with new rules (no hand-checking) and (power forwards) shooting threes, if you commit two defenders to the ballhandler, you give up a wide-open shot. They do it more than other people. Their 4-man might be under the basket, up with the (ballhandler) or in the corner.

“The high pick-and-roll, with the great scorer and a guy who can really roll, is the hardest thing in the game to guard.”

Posted by Observer Sports on February 4, 2014 at 03:33 PM | Permalink


It's scary to think how good Al could be with a point guard who could throw an entry pass or run the pick n roll. Kemba for all the heart he has can't do either at all. Ditto for our outside shooting.

Posted by: Go Cats! | Feb 4, 2014 4:31:03 PM

Kemba averaged 18.9 points and 6.3 assists in January. His assist total was trending up. Seemed like he was learning to play with Al. Will be watching tonight. I think we played pretty well against Golden State with Kemba the last time out.

Posted by: Stan | Feb 4, 2014 5:41:04 PM

But Stan, in January the team was 3-7 with Shorty in the lineup...

...without him they've gone 4-3.

As someone else previously suggested Shorty should volunteer to come off the bench for the time being, allow this team to further capitalize on the positive momentum they have generated.

If Deron Williams, a 3-time All-Star and 2-time Olympic Gold Medalist can step up and make such a sacrifice for his team...

...surely Shorty can do the same?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 4, 2014 6:29:34 PM

Get a life.

Posted by: Tyrese Jones | Feb 4, 2014 6:44:24 PM

the guy is BUILT for coming off the bench. I actually like the guys game A LOT, but it's so much better suited for dominating 2nd and 4th quarters than it is 1st and 3rds.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 4, 2014 6:45:48 PM

Tyrese, why do you let your emotions cloud your judgment in a situation like this?

Are you interested in what is best for the team?

Or are you so far down the road to Shorty Slurpdom that he is placed above all else?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 4, 2014 7:16:24 PM

What is the Clippers record since Chris Paul went out? Maybe he should volunteer to come off the bench when he gets back. Idiot.

BtW. Williams is back in the starting line up. Too bad you cant afford cable.

Posted by: Stan | Feb 4, 2014 7:29:45 PM

Same guy questioning whether Kemba would sign with the bobcats when he is a free agent. So you don't think he should even start, but you are concerned that the Bobcats can't sign him? Lmfao.

Posted by: Stan | Feb 4, 2014 7:33:09 PM

Please explain how Chris Paul is relevant to this situation with Shorty.

Bottom line, Nets had momentum and in a class move Deron Williams voluntarily came off the bench for 6 straight games in order to allow the team to continue to capitalize on the momentum and rhythm they had established...

...this is the type of thing a great teammate offers to do -- the interests of the team come before those of the player.

Shorty should do the same.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 4, 2014 7:47:14 PM

Maybe Westbrook should come off the bench.

Posted by: Tyrese Jones | Feb 4, 2014 7:47:26 PM

Tyrese, unlike the statistical data supporting Shorty coming off the bench for the Boob's...

...the stats would indicate Westbrook should start for OKC, you can read about it here: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1944348-will-russell-westbrook-finally-embrace-sidekick-role-next-to-kevin-durant

The article does suggest that to a degree Mr. Westbrook should set aside personal aspirations for the betterment of the team (no guarantee he will, kind of a selfish guy) but overall they are better off with him starting.

On the flipside, the Boob's are on a roll in Shorty's absence and he should be man enough to recognize this and at least for the time being assume the role of spark plug off the bench -- a role that charlottean believes perfectly suits Shorty.

Ok, deep breaths, don't be upset....Iron man was right, truth hurts ya doesn't it?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 4, 2014 8:23:06 PM

Stan, you never did answer that question...

...why would a guy like Shorty want to re-sign with this dump of a franchise?

The team is 45-145 in the Kemba Era -- you think that's fun for him?

(assumes Shorty gets another offer, which is debatable...see the Hendo situation)

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 4, 2014 8:27:28 PM

So I guess you are not really concerned that Kemba won't sign with the Bobcats? Hmmm. That is interesting.

Posted by: Stan | Feb 4, 2014 8:28:15 PM

The Bobcats are playing better. Not sure if it is due to Al being healthy, MKG being back or what, but they are much improved. Another step in the right diction for this team. Next season looks even better. More young talent, free agents, hornets. A team Charlotte can me proud of. This is very exciting for basketball fans!

Posted by: Möbius | Feb 4, 2014 8:33:38 PM

Another slurper who is not only unable to form a cogent argument, just can't even summon the wherewithal to answer even the most simple of questions....they call him Stan. Sad, really.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 4, 2014 9:16:40 PM

I'm a Warrior fan here in San Francisco handicapping this game tonight and wanted to find out if Shorty was playing and looks like he is, but after reading these comments I'm not sure if that is a positive or a negative for the "Boobs". I met one of the many Boobs/Hornet owners summer before last and told him he should trade Walker and whomever else it took to get Curry - this was before Curry re-signed and was still questionable bc of his ankle problems. The guy obviously didn't take the advice. Anyway, anyone with a pulse on this Charlotte team care to predict the score tonight? Thanks.

Posted by: WestCoastMike | Feb 4, 2014 9:56:23 PM

WCM, give the 6 and take the Warriors.

To their credit the Boobs have been playing a lot of teams tough on the road but they have to be tired. Shorty's return could go either way, possibly upset the rhythm the team has established, but on the flipside obviously he's rested and the team could use a shot of energy.

The Warriors have to be eager to avenge the loss in December and if they can't cover a 6 point line against a team like the Boobs who are at the tail end of a long road trip, well they should be ashamed of themselves.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 4, 2014 10:23:59 PM

Go get your lottery tickets slurpers....today is clearly your lucky day.

30 and 13 by Big Al, great game big fella. He had Bogut spinning in circles from the get go. Too bad the stench of AMYC&C eliminated the big fella from All-Star contention.

Mike, hope you didn't listen to me bro....but dang man, that was just a pitiful effort by your guys. WTF?!? Coach Jackson ain't gonna be any fun to be around for a while...

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 5, 2014 12:57:06 AM

So should the Bobcats re-sign Walker or not? Either he is a player you would want to re-sign of not. Which is it? Can't just answer a simple yes or no question? Doesn't get any easier than that.

Posted by: Stan | Feb 5, 2014 1:36:18 AM

Great. Great win. Not surprised. Big Al gives you a shot every night. Just need to find another player to put with him and Kemba. Glad they have a few days off before the next game. Beat the Spurs and I will really be impressed.

Posted by: Jimmer | Feb 5, 2014 1:53:00 AM

Wow. Get your betting advice elsewhere. Let go Cats!

Posted by: Mike | Feb 5, 2014 2:13:36 AM

absolutely overachieved on this road trip. 1-3 was the likely outcome and they pull off 3-1. If they can do something in these next 2 home games, they might start looking like a team that could chase .500.

I'll be a lot more comfortable with a .500 or better team making the playoffs and losing the lottery pick than a .425 team.

they have an extremely soft schedule at the end of the season (albeit a lot of road games) but this next stretch is still very tough.

impressive to have beaten GS twice now. That seems like such a bad matchup for us and I would have thought bogut would have contained Al a bit more.

turnover diff was a wash, offensive rebound diff went HEAVILY to GS, free throw % went heavily to GS, makes barely, but they shot so poorly that we win by 16. not an orthodox way of beating a great shooting team.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 5, 2014 6:47:36 AM

Walker plays on a bad wheel. Stuffs the stat sheet and helps them to maybe the best win all year in his first game back. Nice!

Posted by: Steph. | Feb 5, 2014 7:30:56 AM

Jefferson shot a great percentage , had three assists and didnt hog the ball as much to slow ball movement . Shorty had 7 assists , moved the ball and played stellar defense on Curry running thru screens . When these two do this , they have a chance . Henderson shut down Thomoson , had 17 points , 7 reb w 5 assists whc is a great stat line for him . They must continue to get him the ball so he can score on the weak side away from Jefferson who clogs the lane at times . They must call Mkgs number more and let him score away from Jefferson . Sessions can't go back to his forcing , jacking poor defense ways whc was another key in wins wo
Kemba as he resisted doing all of that . Tolliver must continue hitting a good per centage . If they keep it in the 90 's , they can have a good chance . Last night , the Cats sealed off the arc and killed there fast break which made the Warriors look average .

Posted by: Iron man | Feb 5, 2014 7:34:54 AM

If shorty plays good on ball defense , moves the ball instead of overdribbling the shot clock down , doesn't kill the break by dribbling up ct instead of passing , shoots a good percentage from the field and has at least 7 assists a game , most at the rim , he can start . If not , just let him be a volume shooter off the bench . The starting pt gd must set a good tempo , pace etc for the starters and get teamates shots in Rhytm . If he can't do that , he has to come off the bench . You can't have two ball hogging , poor shooting starters who play poor on ball defense in he and Jefferson and expect wins to happen .

Posted by: Iron man | Feb 5, 2014 7:40:49 AM

1950 mentality

Posted by: Tyrese Jones | Feb 5, 2014 9:59:14 AM

The Bobcats will more than likely make the playoffs this year (hopefully), and is basically a lock that they will lose their 1st Rd to Chicago.

However, they seem to be in good position to get both Detroits and Portlands picks.

With the Detroit Pick (9th-12th Pick)they should go for some solid 3PT shooting and scoring, such as:
- Rodney Hood from Duke, who in my opinion will be better than Evan Turner; or
- Nick Stauskas from Michigan, who is a Kyle Korver kind of player, with better ball handling skills and the ability to finish at the rim.
-However, if Tyler Ennis from Syracuse is avaliable, the Bobcats should seriously consider him.

With the Portland Pick they should go after the Swiss Clint Capela, who is a big PF with excellent defensive and rebounding skills, a perfect fit next to Big Al.

I'm not sure if the Bobcats have a 2nd Rd pick, but if so they should get Visilije Micic, the PG from Serbia. If Tyler Ennis is not the pick earlier, this guy should be "a must" picked. he is a big 6-4 PG, strong, with great 3PT range and a pure PG with superb Basketball IQ. He will be a great compliment to Kemba Walker and Big Al with some 3Pt shooters around.

Posted by: RobC | Feb 5, 2014 10:13:08 AM

Iron man, good analysis, as usual.

RobC, good information. Some sites even show Micic at 6'5" which would be a h-u-g-e upgrade at PG....

Creates a perfect opportunity for Shorty to come in off the bench like Nate Robinson and turn up the tempo!

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 5, 2014 10:32:14 AM

Nice game. Kemba played like he's been reading the comments here. It's gonna be a fun ride down the stretch.

Posted by: apauldds | Feb 5, 2014 11:15:06 AM

Big Al and Tolliver played great. Too bad the home-grown talent is not properly developing around them. I don't know if I have ever seen an NBA player shoot 2 jumpers as far off as MKG has the last 2 games.

Posted by: Jeff Otah | Feb 5, 2014 11:45:50 AM

A playoff team in the 3rd year of a rebuild. Franchise player in Al to build around. Love where this is going. Glad I bought my season tickets last year and locked in the price for this year. Lower level seats for the first year of the Hornets!

Posted by: Monster | Feb 5, 2014 1:48:50 PM

This was the Bobcats' best win this season.
They did it with smothering defense - which was great last night both in the interior and on the perimeter - and another dominant performance from Al Jefferson; Bogut was no match for him.
Hendo and Tolliver had a very good game too.

Given his circumstances, Kemba had a good comeback.
A little more on Kemba.

His assists average for this season is 5.1 per game. That's not much.
But, it kept going up steadily lately.

In the last 15 games, Kemba averaged 6.4 apg; compare this to just 4.4 apg, his average before this last sequence (that was over 28 games).
For his last nine games, Kemba averaged 7.1 apg. He's not yet in best shape, but last night he had 7 assists.
This increase didn't just "happen". It's the result of Kemba learning to play with Big Al, while Al was getting healthier too.

Kemba is a scorer (which is nothing unusual among PGs nowadays), but he's also capable of being a playmaker and a facilitator for teammates. I posted comments on this before. The difference is that now this is not just an expectation, it is a fact.

For next season, we need to get a shooter/high scoring SG or SF - whether it's through the draft, or free agency, or trade. This can be an additional wing player, not a replacement for Hendo or MKG.

As the team's scoring options will increase, and the need for the point guards' scoring will lessen, so Kemba's role as a playmaker will increase.
The more scoring options he'll be surrounded with, the more his assists will continue going up too.

I'm not saying he's Chris Paul or Ricky Rubio, but he's not a "ball hog " either.

Posted by: Sandy | Feb 5, 2014 2:11:54 PM

kemba is not at all a ball hog. I think before the injury he lead the league in passes made and touches.

he just isn't a shot creator for his teammates. he's been getting better, but he doesn't do it too easily. it's not his natural game.

i'm nervously awaiting the trade deadline. going 3-1 as opposed to 1-3 or 0-4 on this road trip surely has them in buying mode regardless of how many they drop in the next 5 leading up to the deadline.

2 major expiring contracts plus haywood's cheap deal (should still be valuable to a contender with injuries in the post) plus assets should be able to materialize a legitimate wing scorer or playmaker to make sense of this roster.

i would love to see mcroberts get upgraded.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 5, 2014 2:31:16 PM

Does it really matter where they get their upgrade? With all these teams focused on the draft, it is the perfect time to get a talented veteran player you could never find with the 15th or 20th pick. One that can help you this year and next year.

Posted by: Monster | Feb 5, 2014 2:44:24 PM

With the lowest shooting percentage in the last 3 years, no one could average 10 dimes a game on our team. Westbrook is not a playmaker and he averages almost 10 assists a game passing to just Serge and KD. Also, our rebounding is weak and no fast breaks for easy assists. It so unfair to expect high assists with weak shooting and one of the lowest scoring teams the last several years.

Posted by: Tyrese Jones | Feb 5, 2014 2:46:06 PM

^^^ chicken vs egg situation.

you can argue the shooters don't make shots so kemba doesn't get assists. or you could argue that the %'s are low because kemba doesn't create enough makeable shots for his teammates.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 5, 2014 4:15:37 PM

^^^The chicken or the egg? MKG can't shoot at all yet. Henderson is streaky at best. Sessions has no outside shot. McRoberts is not a shooter at all. Kemba has one legit scoring option to pass to. Put one other real shooter on the floor with him consistently and his assist numbers would change dramatically. That is obvious.

Posted by: Steph | Feb 5, 2014 4:47:19 PM

"Glad I bought my season tickets last year and locked in the price for this year."

You are in a v=e=r=y select group of people, a dying breed, almost extinct...

...those folks that h-a-t-e money, because you are flat our burning yours, moron.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 5, 2014 8:53:54 PM

"A playoff team in the 3rd year of a rebuild."

A playoff team? You use this term loosely huh?

This joke of a franchise, the single worst franchise in the h-i-s-t-o-r-y of the NBA, which has been to the "playoffs" once in their history (now in their 10th season)...

...you refer to them as a "playoff team"?!? WTF?!?!?!?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 5, 2014 11:18:10 PM

Funny. The only person you don't troll is Iron Man. That about sums it up.

Posted by: Steph | Feb 6, 2014 7:04:30 AM

That guy defines hater. Someone (NASTAR), for whatever reason, does not want someone else (Bobcats) to be successful. The improvement is undeniable. You can debate the finer points of why. Which many do. But it is 3 consecutive years of improvement know. Have an all-star caliber big man along with a very good coach. They will replace more players next year and should improve further. Why you would chastise anyone that comments on that is beyond me.

Posted by: Mike | Feb 6, 2014 8:36:34 AM

steph you must not remember all the guys nash made look like reggie miller over the years.

mkg isn't a deep shooter, but he's a finisher at the rim....layups count too.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 6, 2014 8:57:07 AM

A team has at wings and bigs shooters or scorers . These guys are scorers . You must have a passing system that gets layups by cutting , back doors , lobs and transition buckets for scorers . You must as well have a pt gd that facilitates and gets these guys layups by getting in the lane , drawing two defenders and dishing for a layup or close shot at the rim . That's why if Kemba doesn't facilitate in the lane and get assists at the rim where he's horrible except as of late , the scorers will suffer . Some of you guys should learn the difference . Then you won't say some of the dumb stuff trying to defend a pt gd that is terrible respecting assists at the rim whc kills the team .

As of late , shorty has gotten more assists and ones inside . And guess what ? The team is winning . When he was out and they were 4 and 2 , the assists at the rim went way up bc Henderson , McRoberts and Sessions got the ball inside and dished to open teamates . It was the difference . You can make all the dumb comments about Kembas play but they won't change the facts . The ball movement was hugely much better . If he stays the course fine . But don't attempt to tell me or others what won those games and what changes occurred .

Posted by: Iron man | Feb 6, 2014 9:03:32 AM

Mike, sign up for a remedial math course, you can't count (can't spell either, one thing at a time).

"But it is 3 consecutive years of improvement know."

Oh yeah? 34->7->21->? You must be a practitioner of the "new math"? List your 3 data points.

Mike, improvement isn't the issue, the issue is will Air Minimum, Yes Co. & Cho deliver on their promises -- promises of repeated forays "deep into the playoffs" and a "championship contender"...

AMYC&C say "trust us", I don't, nor have they given us any reason to. What they have given us is EPIC levels of failure -- levels of failure never before seen in the NBA...but we are supposed to "trust" 'em. Yeah, right.

Mike, I'm truly of the opinion that for the most part our team is composed of a bunch of solid citizens, good guys....well that's all nice and dandy -- can they win in the playoffs?

What would lead you to believe that they can? Please be specific.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 6, 2014 1:21:44 PM

a lineup of kemba/henderson/mkg/zeller/biyombo could win in the playoffs with the right bench behind them and the right development.

problem is.....that's not what we're headed toward.

the MOST minutes played by zeller is 26. 9 games of 20-26 minutes. 16.7mpg. let's compare that to the previous five #4 picks in the draft.

westbrook: 32.5 mpg. he averaged 6 and a half more minutes per game than zeller's high.

evans: 37.2 mpg.
wesley johnson: averaged 26.2 mpg. had 2 games of 42+ minutes, 64 games of 20 or more, 23 of 30 or more.
tristain thompson: 23.7 mpg, didn't play much early, 25 starts, 1 game of 41, by my count 22 games more than zeller's high, 38 games of 20 or more.
dion waiters: 28.8 per game, 48 starts, 58 of 20 or more, 22 of 30 or more.

kid can't succeed if he's not playing. anthony bennett is being labeled a bust by the clown committee yet everytime he gets minutes, he produces. last night being a prime example, where the starters lose the game in the first quarter and a bennett led second team nearly pulled off a comeback in the 4th.

zeller is so much better than mcroberts that i don't get where they even think it helps us short term.

per 36 mcroberts is giving us 10 points and 6 rebounds

cody: 11 and 9

mcroberts is shooting more efficiently, but that also has a lot to do with actually playing as opposed to hardly playing and being asked to shoot cold jumpers a few times a game. the kid gets minutes, that evens out.

and zeller is a better defender than mcroberts, even as a rookie.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 6, 2014 1:55:45 PM


Who is that rag tag band gonna beat? Lay out a realistic scenario where they qualify for the playoffs and actually win a round?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 6, 2014 2:07:18 PM

rag tag? all top 10 picks and would have been if we had traded all of our picks away.

very similar to memphis conley/allen/gay/randolph/gasol lineup.

i'm not talking about this year. i'm talking about long term. but that was also under the assumption that we were planning on developing these guys to reach their potential.......which clearly isn't happening.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 6, 2014 2:44:21 PM

So what you're saying is the Boobs never win a playoff series with that group...


As for where they were picked, when His Minimumness is doing the picking that stat is not relevant. Biyombo should have been a 70, not a 7. (for example)

MW, you back the country yet? We are waiting...

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 6, 2014 3:13:53 PM

I'm saying they would and if they changed course now, they could.

Biyombo would have gone 8th if we had passed on him. and he's STILL absolutely worth that draft pick. we just aren't utilizing him at all.

big man blocks shots, rebounds, and finishes at the rim. what else is he supposed to be that he's not? what is tyson chandler? what is deandre jordan? what is roy hibbert? what is any big man not named robin lopez or al jefferson (neither of which have won anything)?

biyombo is finishing post ups at an extremely high rate this year. yet he never actually intentionally gets a post up play called for him. great coaching, right?

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 6, 2014 3:31:03 PM

Whatever loser. You hate the Panthers and the Bobcats. Do you even have a team? Or maybe yiu are such an expert you run a team. I think not.

This team could win a playoff series with Big Al. You might want to see where they are at in the standings. If they make it to 6th they have a real chance. Does winning a series make NASTAR go away? Probably not. Just will fine something else to whine about. Again, proving that hater designation.

It will be 3 consecutive next year. 7, 21, 33? 44? not good enough for you. You have no idea what rebuilding even looks like. Just want to hate on this team for whatever lame reason you have.

Posted by: Mike | Feb 6, 2014 3:52:54 PM

they won't make 6th, and next year is only 3 consecutive if they go up from the 34-36 games they win this year. and there's NO guarantee of that.

and this isn't rebuilding. rebuilding would be if zeller and biz were playing a lot. they aren't. this is us aborting the rebuild to bring in a bunch of veterans and rely on them.

but yeah, that nastar dude is insane. he doesn't know what he wants, who he wants to win, nor does he have most of his facts straight.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 6, 2014 3:59:55 PM

Love it when NASTAR corrects people. Wasn't there a list circulating with all the things he has said that are flat out wrong? He had a nice prediction on the Golden State game. Too bad no one has time to track it.

Posted by: Johnny | Feb 6, 2014 4:57:45 PM

I guess when you make ignorant comments about Kemba being in the Italian league. You spend the rest of your time trying to justify it. That was one hell of a prediction!

Posted by: PSL Owner | Feb 6, 2014 6:57:40 PM

First of all nastar is a hater and an idiot...The cats are much improved...If they stay healthy there gonna win around 40 games this year...they'll improve more next year..This is a young core group they can only get better..

Posted by: shane | Feb 6, 2014 9:40:00 PM

"But it is 3 consecutive years of improvement know."

Mike, that's what you said. I presume you meant to type "now" in place of "know"?

So it would have been...



Not "next year".....N-O-W. Be a good idea for you to learn to count before you attempt to tangle with NASTAR99.

You guys keep saying "yeah the Boobs could win a playoff series"....against who?

Name the 4 most likely opponents, and which of them the Boobs can beat?

Bet you can't...

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 6, 2014 10:37:30 PM

shane, currently the Boobs are sitting on 22-28. For them to finish the season at 40-44 they'll have to go 18-16 the rest of the way. Do you really expect this? I guess it's possible if teams like Golden State keep laying down for them...

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 6, 2014 10:41:38 PM

clttn...Biyombo is the 9th man on a lousy team, sometimes 10th man -- wake up to reality bro!

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 6, 2014 10:43:16 PM

Yes I think they can play pretty close to 500 ball the rest of the season...The next few games at home are gonna be pretty tough but I think they can get a couple of those..then they have a favorable schedule after that...

Posted by: shane | Feb 6, 2014 10:52:01 PM

The reason there not closer to 500 right now is bc mkg was out for six weeks...then they lost taylor...If they hadent lost them I'd say they would Prob be in the 7th if not the 6th place right now...

Posted by: shane | Feb 6, 2014 10:58:59 PM

Fair enough shane but keep in mind all NBA teams face injuries on a regular basis so that's no excuse. I will say that this team is actually starting to play like...a team, and that means a lot.

If they get to 40 I'll be the first to commend you.

If they got the 6th or 7th seed who do you think they'd face and what would the outcome be?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 6, 2014 11:04:57 PM

NASTAR, you need to get through your head that Biyombo has incredible potential; certainly enough to be twice of what he is now; if not a commanding presence in the league.

But that fact that, yes, he is raw, combined that our coach has elected to go the experience route, rather than develop talent in game situations has decreased his role, and thereby, his production.

You're the same way with MKG, when you know for a fact that you watched the video of him absolutely making Carmelo miserable (although, he had great night next time they met). ESPN recently had MKG as one of the top defensive players in the league.... he's 20 years old.

Tell us that the Spurs should have traded Bowen during their title run. Tell us that Seattle wins the Superbowl because their offense was all pro-bowl. Olajuwon, Pippen, Bowen, Wallace, Rodman.... Elite teams need to have a shutdown defender. MKG is without a doubt going to earn a lot of respect in this league.

Posted by: Downtown Sports | Feb 6, 2014 11:09:59 PM

They may win one game...then they would loose the series. ..

Posted by: shane | Feb 6, 2014 11:19:17 PM

"...our coach has elected to go the experience route, rather than develop talent in game situations has decreased his role, and thereby, his production."

Why do you think this is happening? Wasn't "developing talent" one of the key tenets of The Plan? What happened?

As previously stated...as people, I think we have a terrific group of guys on our team. Collectively and individually they are well adjusted, keep their noses clean, stay out of the papers, etc...

...but Biyombo as a player, I just don't think he's as good as you guys believe to be the case, nor do I believe he has the potential you all see -- simple as that.

Ditto MKG.

Having said all that, let's set opinions aside and look at a simple fact -- Biyombo is 9th in the rotation on a poor basketball team...

...why is this?

Is he gonna get good in his 10th year as a pro like Bruce Bowen did? Same for MKG?

Fun Fact: did you know Bruce Bowen led the NBA in 3-pt% in 2003? 44.1% on 229 3's taken.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 12:16:27 AM

"Why do you think this is happening? Wasn't "developing talent" one of the key tenets of The Plan? What happened?"
-- on that, we agree. As does CLTN. Although I understand the gotta win now mentality, especially if I'm the coach, I can't believe we're putting these high draft picks on the floor more to develop their game now.

"...but Biyombo as a player, I just don't think he's as good as you guys believe to be the case, nor do I believe he has the potential you all see -- simple as that.

Ditto MKG."
-- on that, we just gotta agree to disagree. First, how can you say that when ESPN rated MKG as a top defender? Again- he was 19 years old when the season started. Second, going back to the top- if BB was getting more playing time which he's not, a lot of the argument on BB would be making itself clear now.

Bowen got to be a better 3-point shooter the longer he was in the league- but he was already a great defender before his 3 point shot improved.

Posted by: Downtown Sports | Feb 7, 2014 12:42:44 AM

This ESPN ranking has him 44th at his position: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf

You can click the heading for each stat and it will re-rank based on that stat, MKG is only inside the top-20 in one stat -- offensive rebounds (8th). Defensive rebounds he's 29th (20th combined), and all the other stats he's abysmal, pretty much outside the top-40 in everything. Remember this is a #2 pick we are talking about, not some guy who went undrafted and sneaked up on everyone after 9 years as a pro...

Going to be real interesting to see if any of our recent draft picks get shipped between now and the 20th!

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 1:17:35 AM

Clifford is an old school veteran coach . He's trying make the playoffs . You don't develop players much when doing so . In fact , you cut down on the mistakes and play veteran players much more . The draft picks by Cho do not meet the standard of being able to score big in playoff series . if they don't , you don't pick them as lottery picks . Shorty is the only one and he's a sg at pt gd . Clifford is forcing the hand of Cho and will not play Biz , Mkg or Zeller large minutes . All three are questionable as to developing to the level of scoring big during playoff series and will be difficult to pay and keep under Clifford .

Posted by: Iron man | Feb 7, 2014 6:52:34 AM

Maybe they will ship Kemba to the Italian League. You think?

Win a playoff series against who? Anyone outside of Indiana and Miami can be beat this year in the first round. They are 2 games out from playing someone other than those 2 teams.

Posted by: PSL Owner | Feb 7, 2014 6:52:46 AM

hollinger stats are skewed by playing time. there are hardly any low mpg high PER players that aren't outliers completely.

hollinger is proving he's not as smart as he thought with what he has done in memphis (taking a title contender to mediocrity and firing the coach that got them there). their window on their core is closing and he wasted it over analyzing things instead of accepting the fact that conley/allen/gay/randolph/gasol just worked. it wasn't pretty statistically, but it translated to wins.

There are a ton of players mostly young guys that have low minute roles, and low PERs. they start playing starter minutes and all of a sudden the PER skyrockets. biyombo applies there. he's the epitome of efficiency this year. his free throws are up, fg is way up, rebounds way up, blocks slightly up, minutes down. the equation for PER has too many bi-products of playing time. there should be an adjusted PER for playing time ranges to measure apples to apples.

changing course: antic and lillard are unlikely to play in the rising stars game.....mkg and zeller both should be given the nod. should have been there to begin with.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 7, 2014 9:45:08 AM

"hollinger stats are skewed by playing time. there are hardly any low mpg high PER players that aren't outliers completely."


From Hollinger: "Two important things to remember about PER are that it's per-minute and is pace-adjusted.

Because it's a per-minute measure, it allows us to compare, say, Steve Blake and Derek Fisher, even though there is a disparity in their minutes played."

Changing gears...

From Shorty: “That’s ridiculous, as far as us tanking and getting a high draft pick,” Walker said following practice Thursday. “I don’t think we need any more (high) draft picks at this point.”

Whoopsy Daisy! Doesn't look like Shorty is down with The Plan!

More from Shorty: Walker, who drove Connecticut to the NCAA championship in 2011, said he could never abide the franchise not trying its best.

“I could never do that,” Walker said. “I play this game to win, not to lose. If we are going to lose, we’ll make sure it’s not easy.”

Really? Is he that stupid? What does he think has been going on for the last 2 years? One would have to be a complete moron to not....

Iron man, interesting analysis/thoughts there. Hadn't considered the possibility of a power struggle between Clifford and Cho-beanhead...

...so who wins that battle?

Cho has been invisible lately....is he at risk?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 10:07:26 AM

Another Biyombo doubter...

"The Bobcats are also shopping the ending contract of Ben Gordon and there has been talk that they would toss in Bismack Biyombo for the right kind of upgrade, although that might not be much of an inducement."


Money quote: "...not much of an inducement."

Translated for Slurpers: An "elite 9th man" ain't worth much.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 10:27:38 AM

The Plan has no clothes!!

"I’ve heard from rival executives that the Bobcats are going to be buyers at the deadline. This is an organization that is tired of losing games and they’d love to make the playoffs this year. This is their opportunity, with the Eastern Conference being wide open. I’d be surprised if they decided to pack it in and tank the rest of the season. I get that there’s an incentive to lose so that they can keep their draft pick rather than giving it to the Bulls, but that didn’t affect their decision-making when they signed Al Jefferson over the offseason and I don’t think it’ll affect their decision-making at the deadline. They want to win."


I told you slurpers that Air Min couldn't see The Plan through....

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 10:33:49 AM

NASTART, come back when you have stronger material than quoting 2nd tier basketball websites that are quoting anonymous sources and have to add things just to try and fil space/spice it up.

Posted by: Downtown Sports | Feb 7, 2014 12:21:40 PM

nastar you clearly don't get stats.

per minute does not mean that it isn't skewed towards playing time. guys are more efficient playing in 8 minute stretches than in 3 minute stretches. look at ANY large segment and the numbers will not lie about that. guys playing small minutes (especially young guys) cannot get a feel for the game and get going before they get yanked.

look at all of the PER numbers for players that go from not playing to playing a lot. there's a significant bump. they didn't wake up and start playing a different game, they got more minutes and thus got to play the game they were capable of.



my favorite: look at gerald green last year and this year and the year before last


there are way too many guys that their PER increases along with their playing time. there should be a +30 mpg PER level, a 15-30 mpg level and a -15mpg level. guys playing more tend to be more efficient than guys filling gaps in the game.

and the biyombo quote is wholey indicative of how we take a draft pick and make him look bad for the whole league. milwaukee labels john henson "untouchable" and he has boatloads of value. he and biyombo are ALMOST the same guy. biyombo has a way better physical body, henson has a better shooting touch/offensive game. and henson's also 2 years older. but that's the difference in how we handle things and how everybody else does. they give a guy value by perception. we decrease our guys value by perception.

instead of saying "only way we're giving up biz is if we get a significant upgrade in return" and then letting the offers flow........we say "we'll give up biz for an upgrade". devil in the details.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 7, 2014 12:24:21 PM

i forgot to add that on the contrary.....guys who are not well conditioned......do not maintain the level of defensive efficiency: shot blocking/rebounding/steals/overall defense.

that's why you see guys with gaudy rebounding numbers that don't always translate to 36+ mpg. well conditioned guys....do.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 7, 2014 12:39:35 PM

Question. We all know NASTARR got fired by the Bobcats and that is the reason he loves to post anti Bobcat comments. It makes him feel important. Who knows why he got fired.

Posted by: Tyrese Jones | Feb 7, 2014 1:54:40 PM

Read his stuff. Pretty obvious why he got fired. Could you imagine working with such a jerk off? What would those meetings be like?Also, their business used to be in shambles. Long list of morons that were fired for their "contributions" during the Bob Johnson era. Can't imagine too many carry this kind of grudge.

It is funny seeing him try to lay out some well reasoned arguments just to eventually snap. Is there a player on any team in any league that would come out and advocate tanking? No, but that doesn't stop good ole NASTAR to try to turn it into something. What a complete fruit cake.

Posted by: Steph | Feb 7, 2014 3:45:44 PM

The plan? The plan is to get out of cap jail, collect assets and develop players. How you use them to improve is based on any number of circumstances. Making a trade with those assets to get better is deviating from a plan? Not even close. Wow is that myopic and moronic and...I don't have time to list them all.

Posted by: Hugo | Feb 7, 2014 3:50:35 PM

the plan was to patiently rebuild through the draft. make moves for the long term betterment of the franchise to become title contenders, not to chase mediocrity.

they have CLEARLY abandoned the plan they laid out 2 years ago. the only way they return to the plan is if any trades come from trading veterans for young star quality talent (think gordon and a pick for eric gordon) or next year plugging zeller into mcroberts starting spot from day one and never returning.

improving your win loss record by bringing in a bunch of veterans is not getting this team closer to title contention. it might not even land them a playoff spot this year regardless of how desperately clifford tries for it. has more to do with what the knicks do than what we do.

we are way off plan. nothing that we are doing right now leads to an increase in wins next year except MAYBE improved chemistry between Al and teammates. but we're talking marginal increase coupled with more significant improvement from our competition.

what would have had significant impact? MKG, zeller, and/or biz having breakout years while still on rookie scale, having 3 first round draft picks (as trade assets or draft picks), and executing a major deal involving the expiring contracts as mentioned above......

if they trade a young talent for a mediocre veteran they will have officially returned to the BS they've been doing all along. if they do nothing, they will have failed to capitalize on the assets they have accumulated (they could at the very least acquire another future first by swapping gordon for a deal set to expire next year).

very critical juncture for this franchise. they either get back on target, or they stray back into the BS.

they can make the playoffs and still return to the plan. but the correct way of the plan would have involved signing milsapp or hickson or lopez instead of jefferson and playing zeller, biz, and mkg a lot more. still would have been in the running for the 8 spot if they had done so. maybe even more so with milsapp or hickson than jefferson.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 7, 2014 4:13:09 PM

^^^Congrats. You are lined up with NASTAR. So there is no way you can be right. Has to make you feel good. If they make a trade that makes them better now and into the future. That is not changing anything. That is actually how you do it. Sorry the coach doesn't agree that your dream team of MKG and Biz isn't the best course of action.

Posted by: TM | Feb 7, 2014 4:29:56 PM

you aren't understanding this.

i clearly said.......if they make a trade that makes us better now AND future, that's fine.

i said if they make a short sighted trade to get better this year and this year only, it puts us back where we were pre-rebuild.

the whole point of the rebuild was to draft elite talents (like zeller, biz, mkg) and develop them. you guys label these guys busts. the oldest of them is 21. mkg is the 5th youngest player in the league last i checked.

those 3 have a much higher ceiling and chance at title contention than josh mcroberts, al jefferson, and anthony tolliver do. % chance al jefferson wins a title is absolutely zero, barring him being a bench player for a stacked squad a la rashard lewis in miami. we're talking about a veteran core that has us 6 games below .500. bringing in a bunch of mediocre guys to win 5 or 6 more games THIS YEAR does not equate to 10 more wins next year. playing up the young guys DOES. it's been done time and time and time again. you can mix in veterans once you establish the young core (indiana adding david west, washington adding nene, okc adding perkins, houston adding howard) but you have to build from the young core to have sustainable success in this league. it's been proven with time.

you making negative comments about mkg and biz align YOU with nastar.

last i checked that coach was trying to incorrectly analyze +/- statistics. last i checked he had zero rings as a head coach OR as an assistant coach. last i checked, dunlap had more championships of any kind. and arguably at a much harder level in regards to coaching because of the low talent pool.

notice how bad we were when mkg was out vs. how we've been since he's back. and i'm on the wrong side of the facts? really?

the plan was to rebuild from the bottom. Management/ownership got impatient and tried to skip steps. they have this trade deadline and this summer to correct course or to head down this path of every couple of years being mediocre and then being bad for 3 years.

we're on pace for 36-46. That's something to go all in on? seriously? how do you guys not comprehend the concept that going from 21 to 36 wins because we signed a bunch of older guys doesn't mean that we're trending towards 50 wins next year? how do you think that happens? who on the roster is going to improve for that to happen? there are only 2 ways we get to 50 wins next year.....

1 - development of mkg, biz, and or zeller (which has not been the primary goal of this season as it should have been)

2 - trading those guys for a legit franchise changer (not likely)

fill me on the third way. and fill me in on how we're so differently constructed from all of jefferson's previous teams and that's why we'll be so much more successful than he has ever been thus far. keep in mind he posted a 15 win season at age 25 playing with sessions and kevin love and corey brewer, jonny flynn (pre injury posting a solid rookie season), etc. .....15 win season. in his prime. there's a reason. and that reason was NOT part of the "plan" that they sold everybody on 2 years ago. neither was sitting a #4 pick behind josh effing mcroberts who was a 2nd round pick for a reason.

what's the common theme among the young guys in the league that succeed vs. fail? the ones who get coached and playing time tend to succeed and the ones that don't.....tend to fail. clifford's entire job depends on his ability to develop MKG, Zeller and biz. and he's failing miserably at it. these are just the facts.

Posted by: charlottean | Feb 7, 2014 5:59:11 PM

clttn, don't try to reason with the morons...

MW says he knows somebody who knows but he's too much of a p*ssy to post the info.... (either that or he really doesn't know)


You slurpers just can't handle the truth.... I think I might work up a long list of undeniable facts for ya'll just to ruin your day!

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 6:49:32 PM

^^^so you have argued that Biz and MKG are wasted draft picks. Now they may trade them (speculation) to improve the team in another way and you disagree with that? That is what makes you a troll. There is nothing they can do that would please you. Doesn't matter who they hire as a coach. What free agents they bring in. How much they improved over last year.
Undeniable facts like Kemba would be in the Italian league by now? I seem to remember another comment about them never amnestying Tyrus Thomas. You are a jackass. At least if you worked for the Bobcats there would at least be a reason for wasting your time posting all this crap. So what now. Someone posts your name and says you worked for the Bobcats. Then you deny it? Hooray for you anonymous little troll.

How did that nice little Panthers 12-4 feel troll?

Posted by: PSL Owner | Feb 7, 2014 7:11:44 PM

So the Bobcats plan was to tank and Kemba was supposed to be complicit in that plan and then talk about it in the Observer? NASTAR has made some dumb comments, but that might be the top of the long list. Not that anyone would question how much of a hater he is, but that just puts it over the top.

Posted by: Steph | Feb 7, 2014 7:37:34 PM

"How did that nice little Panthers 12-4 feel troll?"

0-1 in games that count bitch!

Home field and a bye to boot...

...only to lay a huge turd on the carpet.

You gonna hang yourself a banner saying "12-4, laid down a monstrous turd when it counted"...??


Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 8:14:53 PM

...only the Super Bowl counts? You are a F$£*ing idiot. Who is your team again? The Charlotte Haters! Can't stand that the Panthers had a great season. Everyone of those 12 wins took something out of you, now that is what is really funny.

Posted by: PSL Owner | Feb 7, 2014 8:22:49 PM

Hang yourself a banner douchebag! "Kit Kats -- make the playoffs once a decade -- never won a thing!"

Get a big one slurper!


Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 8:31:14 PM

There you go little troll. Keep showing your true colors. See you at the home opener! Should be another fun season for actual fans of sports in Charlotte. Go Panthers. Go Bobcats.

Posted by: PSL Owner | Feb 7, 2014 9:02:39 PM

What section/row will you be sitting in? Is it a struggle for you to pay for tickets?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 9:14:10 PM

I sit next to your mom. Putting a beer on her flat head is great. Like having an extra drink holder. She actually pays for my tickets. Nice little arrangement.

Posted by: PSL Owner | Feb 7, 2014 10:11:05 PM

Wow. What a loser you are. Talk like that make you feel good? Feel proud about it? One thing I'm certain of is you can't afford a decent ticket -- those new escalators probably a big relief for you...

So, our #4 rookie and #2 soph...neither get a look for the 2014 Rising Stars game -- the hits just keeeeeep on coming.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 10:23:03 PM

9 players drafted after MKG in 2012 made the Rising Stars game.

7 players drafted after Zeller made it.

Top 4 picks the last 2 years and we can't pick a guy who is good enough to get into the rookie/soph all-star game but 16 guys drafted after ours make it....just great.

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 7, 2014 10:40:48 PM

Oh. Little Panthers/ Bobcat anonymous troll is offended? Now that is rich. The one who can't be shamed trying to shame someone. Truth be told I enjoy my time with your mom. One classy lady. I would never let her sit upstairs. She needs to conserve her energy!

Posted by: PSL Owner | Feb 8, 2014 5:52:55 AM

I like the analysis of Charlottean . Really do . But Charlottean , you are way off claiming Cliffirds primary goal is to develop players . Mj paid Jefferson 41 m to win now . When you win now , you don't develop , you play guys who impact and don't make as many mistakes . Those are vets . Equally , they would not have signed Jefferson who took the minutes away from both Zeller and Biz ESP not at that whopping amount . And this is key . To develop players , they must have the raw talent that allows them to improve . Biz does not . He has terrible lateral agility , a low bb iq , poor coordination and horrific hand eye coordination as displayed by him dropping and fumbling balls . Worse , it's a well known fact that for some reason some larger African players have disproportionately exhibited hand eye coordination skills that don't imorove . Ie . Yinca Dare . Mutumbo . Manute Bol etc and a host of others that failed as well in the nba and whom exhibit such poor skills in other leagues . Of course , this is a generalization and some other African players in soccer etc have no such problems , but studies in bb show some issues ESP w the larger players .

Nastar... If you picked three top picks and I wasn't playing them , you would expect for there to be a problem . And there is . To be fair , it's the nature of the situation between a Gm and coach . But here , Clifford is sending a message to Cho that he needs some help and these guys ain't the ones . Old school coaches have done it in the past all the time when needed . Clifford isn't trying to embarrass Cho but that's the practical result . Cho has to be livid bc three of his four most recent picks are not close to playing on a level where they were drafted . And he's constantly being criticized in the media . Mj can't trust him to make the right pick going forward . And you know Chos saying the same thing guys are saying here in defense of himself . Bottom line , they need to get an old , wise experienced Gm like the Pacers had . I don't think Cho ever played bb and he has his head too far in his computer to see if his players fit .

Posted by: Iron man | Feb 8, 2014 7:55:38 AM

You guys should try another approach w Nastar bc you're all losing . When you resort to jokes as a reply , it suggests you can't debate his basic premise . And for the most part few do . He actually doesn't leave himself open to attack . His conclusions are based in fact . Ie look at how many rising stars were picked after Zeller and Mkg . It's not enough to merely say its bc they're not being developed . You can play Mkg all you want but that won't fix his jump shot . You can play Zeller all you want but that won't make him stronger on defense to hold position and not get pushed around . You can play Biz as long as you want but that won't help him stay in front of pfs or stop fumbling balls . These are fundamentals that preclude heavy minutes and crunch time rotation . Many of the other rising stars are devoid of such core issues .

Posted by: Iron man | Feb 8, 2014 8:07:12 AM

An interesting quote from Brendan Haywood..."I can go 10 to 15 minutes a game to give Al a blow"...where does that leave Biz?....future trade?

Posted by: MJ | Feb 8, 2014 9:13:05 AM

^^^Flawed in so many ways. You dont think the coach and GM for teams talk? Who do you think hired the coach? Are you at practice and in the meetings? Players develop differently. They had an opportunity to get Jefferson and they took it. Does that impact player development strategy? Of course. Doesnt mean the a young player can't or won't develop. Just means a true post of center was a available and they went after him. that is why you free up cap space. Now if you can use those young players or cap space to facilitate another move that speeds up your process legitimately, you do it.

you can defend your soulmate NASTAR all you want. but all he does is troll this team. He contradicts himself non stop and insults players, fans, coaches.

Did you agree with NASTAR's conclusion that Kemba would be in the Italian league or that they would never amnesty Thomas. Here is a good one. MJ was to cheap to change the name of the team. Want me to debate any of those? How about thinking that Kemba should endorse tanking? That one is in this thread. Did you like that one Iron Man? All well reasoned analysis by NASTAR! There are a million more. C'mon Iron Man.

Posted by: Mike | Feb 8, 2014 9:32:59 AM

I'm a Knicks fan so for all you Bobcat fans that don't like Kemba on your team as a starting PG, please send him our way!! He would be a welcomed addition!

Posted by: Jackson | Feb 8, 2014 10:19:12 AM

Iron Man. Here is the problem with NASTAR.

If Walker says he doesn't believe in tanking. (no player in the world would ever admit to tanking) Then there is an issue with the plan.

If Walker said they were tanking. Your buddy would have a problem with that as well.

No one has an issue with facts. State the record of the team, your opinion, whatever. But the constant "Boobcats, Shorty, etc etc" The criticism from both sides of any issue and the negative comments attached to any normal post about the Bobcats (or Panthers for that matter) is what makes him or any poster behaving the same way the definition of a troll.

Any defense of that type of behavior makes you a NASTAR alias or oblivious. You can pick either one. Neither is great.

Posted by: Steve P. | Feb 8, 2014 1:44:14 PM

Iron man, when a piker like PSLo rolls out the Mom related insults it's always a sign that you've exposed them at the core -- PSL owner is an impostor, in fact he cannot afford to buy seats.

Air Minimum promised:
1. repeated forays deep into the playoffs.
2. a championship contender.

Air Minimum has delivered:
1. a coaching turnstile - 3 in 3 years and the current one out of favor because he doesn't give enough minutes to slurper favs.
2. epic levels of on court failure, levels never before seen in the NBA but destined to take the mudshark in your mythology.
3. lifetime employment for Rod Higgins, shoot me.
4. our rookie and soph picks add up to 6 but can't even make the Rising Stars game!
5. our 7 pick is 9th man on a good night!

But you morons just slurp it all up and let Air Min, Yes Co. & Cho lead you around by the nose -- what is wrong with you people?!?

Do you slurpers really "trust" those idiots?

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 8, 2014 3:24:30 PM

As for the "oh but We are improving" fallacy...come on slurpers, get your heads out of your *sses!

When you plumb never before seen depths a Dead Cat bounce is inevitable!!

Posted by: NASTAR99 | Feb 8, 2014 3:42:04 PM

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