June 04, 2014
Charlotte Hornets' Al Jefferson named All-NBA
Charlotte Hornets center Al Jefferson was named All-NBA third-team Wednesday, in a vote of media members who regularly cover the league.
Jefferson averaged 21.8 points, 10.8 rebounds and shot 51 percent from the field, leading the then-Bobcats to only the second playoff appearance in that franchise’s 10-year history.
Jefferson signed as a free agent last July in what became a franchise-changing transaction. They had never before had a primary scorer with Jefferson’s impact.
He started the season slowly, due to an ankle sprain suffered in the preseason. That was a factor in him not being selected by the NBA’s coaches as an All-Star reserve. But from January on, he was arguably one of the NBA’s 10 best players.
Jefferson had never previously been named either All-NBA or an All-Star selection. Ex-Bobcat Gerald Wallace was named an All-Star reserve in the 2009-10 season.
Posted by Observer Sports on June 4, 2014 at 12:19 PM | Permalink
Good for Big Al...!!
If you want to see some elite point guard play tune in tomorrow night at 9...
Y'all see the story about the Boobs draft futility since Air Min took over in 2006? Had to be painful for all you slurpers.
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 4, 2014 12:43:11 PM
LOL, haters gotta hate. No matter if it makes any sense or not. Jordan and Cho have done a fantastic job the last 5 years. We are in one of the most enviable positions in the league going into next season. The value of the team has gone up 3 fold since MJ took the helm. And next season sell out-s will be the norm again. What will they cry about then??
Posted by: Truth | Jun 4, 2014 1:02:59 PM
Wow, you mean the two teams in the Finals have elite point guards? Unbelievable fact!!!
I wish I could be like you and always find negative things to say about the hometown team the Observer writes about.
Posted by: C Dub | Jun 4, 2014 1:07:00 PM
the 2 teams in the finals have elite PG's??? .... MIND IS BLOWN!!!
Thanks so much NASTARR. Amazing breakdown!!
Posted by: Chris | Jun 4, 2014 1:14:55 PM
The day NASTAR dies, the world will be a better place
Posted by: BobQC | Jun 4, 2014 1:16:07 PM
Nastar, Why don't you get a job and move out of your Mother's basement? Oh, I forgot, you're not weaned yet.
I'm proud to be a hornets supporter.
Release the Kraken!
Posted by: Greg Hardy | Jun 4, 2014 1:23:12 PM
"And next season sell out-s will be the norm again."
Hit the crack pipe again slurper...
"The value of the team has gone up 3 fold since MJ took the helm."
How do you figure?
Wait, didn't you all say Shorty is better than Tony Parker? Did I imagine that?
PS...Cho has only been with the team 3 years but with all the draft busts and NBA all-time worst marks sure does feel like 5!!
CDub, how many more names you gonna post under before you're done?
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 4, 2014 1:28:48 PM
The Heat don't have an elite point guard unless you mean King James who gets more assists at the rim than Kemba among doing a ton of other things way better that a pt gd should do . When James or Parker get in the lane , they look to draw a defender and dish . Kemba looks to shoot .
Big Al . Good award . But at what cost ? He's the other player here that gets doubled and rarely passes . What other star does this ? You must sacrifice for your teammates , make them better by dishing to them once doubled or tripled . You can't fail to pass , not on ball defend , protect the rim or paint or provide any help defense and expect to get out the first round . This is Big Al . Trade him for Robin Lopez who can play league average offense and defense . By next yr this time , the Hornets will be tired of the greedy , selfish , one way playing , no defending stars in Kemba and Jefferson . If you want to win a ring , both are a total waste of time until they in fact share the ball and defend .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 4, 2014 1:33:22 PM
And why , pray tell was Jefferson never named as an Allstar before ? Bc the nba hates lazy ass no defending or passing players . Duncan shares the ball . So do Durant , James , Westbrook , , Howard Ginobli , Dirk , Monta , Gasol , etc
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 4, 2014 1:43:10 PM
Way to go Big Al! Best center in the East. Let's get him on the All Star roster this season.
Posted by: apauldds | Jun 4, 2014 1:56:27 PM
Wow, the trolls are having a field day.
I remember all the national talking heads last August - they were calling Big Al the worst signing in the NBA. They said we would still suck, but not enough to get the most ping-pong balls and wouldn't get Wiggins. Turns out that Big Al is the third-best center in the league, we'll get a great player with the 9th pick, and free agents will actually want to come here. It's a good time to be a Hornets fan.
Posted by: J | Jun 4, 2014 2:07:32 PM
These poorly thought-out comments never cease to me amaze me. Trade Jefferson for Robin Lopez HAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Bobcat Bucks | Jun 4, 2014 2:16:07 PM
Posted by: GS | Jun 4, 2014 2:40:08 PM
Parker has always been a scorin pg. He has matured since the days of the Spurs going after Jason Kid to replace him. If he could learn so can Kemba. Big Al brings something we needed, now we need a legit 3rd option and he may learn to pass the ball quicker out of double teams. Cross your fingers on that on. Point is, we may not be good but we can see it from here.
Posted by: JayTee | Jun 4, 2014 2:42:53 PM
Nasty Nastar's favorite teams: Seahawks (but Cowboys regular season) Heat (with San Antonio and or OKC in the West)..Red Sox (since Yankees didn't make it) Blackhawks..Duke in NCAA basketball and Bama in NCAA football..Cal State Fullerton in NCAA baseball.. John's Hopkins in College Lacrosse..and yes you guessed it..Jimmie Johnson in NASCAR!! What clasic front-running punk!
Posted by: Joe Staley | Jun 4, 2014 3:28:19 PM
Now they just need to make a run at Lance Stevenson or Chandler Parsons and we'll be set. If you can't get them go after Zach Randolph. Resign McRoberts and Douglas-Roberts and draft for need at #9 and #24. Combining this with Big Al and the emergence of Kemba and we're elite in the east.
Posted by: bb1130 | Jun 4, 2014 4:11:28 PM
Ironwoman aka Louis Tape.... you receive the award for dumbest comment ever posted; "This is Big Al . Trade him for Robin Lopez who can play league average offense and defense"
Trade Al for Robin Lopez.... you are a complete moron. Go be a Heats fan or Spurs fan. You talk about the same idiotic nonsense all the time. You and NASCAR make a cute couple.
Posted by: D.W.G. | Jun 4, 2014 4:16:16 PM
Robin Lopez??? Not event the good Lopez (Brook) I guess you didn't see Robin and his league average defense get destroyed in the playoffs. Lets give up Al for a guy who doesn't score or rebound as well as he does...
Zach Randolph has a player option worth 18mil, he's not turning that down. He will be in Memphis next year. Houston will probably resign Parsons, and I don't want Lance and all his silliness.
Posted by: truth_cutz | Jun 4, 2014 4:26:06 PM
DWG .. You're the stupid idiot bc you don't understand what wins championships . It's not about who's better on offense dummy . It's about who fits better for a team making a serious playoff run . If you can't see that a center who plays offense , help defense , on ball defense , protects the rim and paint is better than a center who only plays offense , then you're much dumber than I thought . We know you don't know half the bb I do . Half . That's a given . So in a case like that , it's best just to shut up .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 4, 2014 6:57:26 PM
Most here can't see past a scoring average and rebounds .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 5, 2014 7:43:04 AM
look the guy flat out deserved it. regardless of how horrible his defense was, there just wasn't a 3rd center that had a better year. hibbert was horrible down the stretch which was all it took to solidify jefferson in the 3rd team. they could have given it to him over a month ago.
who else was there? there are guys that are better, but there aren't guys that were healthy enough and had better seasons.
marc gasol was deserving but he missed like 10 more games. I probably would have gone with gasol myself, but jefferson had an incredible stretch of play offensively after the all-star break. i think it was just as much a lifetime achievement award as it was for this season because he probably won't come close again. there's just too many guys that are better overall.
and no....nobody wants brook lopez. dude is way overpaid, can't get healthy, can't rebound, plays soft defense. he couldn't even carry us to the mediocrity that jefferson can.
robin lopez is a solid starting center (especially at his price tag) but i would take biz over him ANY DAY.
honestly i think we just need to find more ways to hide jefferson defensively and play biz alongside him. teams will go small and try to hurt us that way, but we would destroy any small 4's on the block with either big. eff conforming, let them conform. just can't get better without better interior defense. it's the entire argument against jefferson. the entire argument. the guy is a GREAT offensive talent.
that all said, i'm still completely on board in making an all in play for the younger, better, more athletic kevin love.
actually i take back everything I said about jefferson deserving it completely.......i forgot about deandre jordan who just had a GREAT year where if not for chris paul floundering in the clutch we might be talking about the clippers in the finals. that guy had a GREAT year. way better than jefferson as far as overall impact. no post up game but post up game does not directly mean wins. he led the league in rebounds, 2nd in blocks, 1st in fg%. what more can you ask for from the kid?
Posted by: charlottean | Jun 5, 2014 8:37:01 AM
Wow. Didn't think it was possible for NASTAR to look like a bigger idiot than he already is. But somehow he did it. You have to really work to troll anything this team is doing now. Awesome!
Posted by: Alan | Jun 5, 2014 9:11:04 AM
Big Al. Top 3 at his position in the NBA as voted by the coaches. I am good with their opinion on this topic. The Hornets have an all NBA player to go with 2 first rounders and cap space. Talk about progress from where they were. Incredible turn around for them. Go Hornets!
Posted by: Steam | Jun 5, 2014 9:14:17 AM
I can't "shut up" on a sports blog, I'm typing not talking. Looks like with your elementary style grammar of abbreviations, your the idiot. Yes I'm typing to Ironwoman aka Louis Tape aka Coward Hiding Behind Different Names.
You seem to think this is NBA 2K where you can just trade and make a team any way you want. You are never happy with anything this team does. All you do is complain, complain, complain and live in your dream world of how you think this team should be run. Do us all a favor and disappear like you did on At The Hive. Coward.
Posted by: D.W.G. | Jun 5, 2014 9:26:11 AM
Posted by: Hugo | Jun 5, 2014 9:27:12 AM
I in no way am claiming that Jefferson is not deserving of any awards he's bestowed . His awards are well deserved . He's one of the most dominant and prolific scorers of all time at center . ... But so what ? Who cares ? It has zero to do w assembling a team that can get past the first round . Jefferson has never done it . In ten yrs . And he won't . This is the sole issue on the table . Calling me a coward for having two names won't change that you know about as much as a bag of hammers about bb DWG . In fact , I tried to use my original name but it wouldn't take . Only a moron would find anything suspicious about two names being used on two different sites . But if I'm a coward , so what ? Who cares ? It still has no impact on you not knowing even what a pick and Roll is . Lol . Or anything beyond that . Lol.
Jefferson has a great average and rebounds . Period . But the ball stops moving w him . Let's talk about his offense . .. He doesn't screen , rescreen , roll , act as a roller who hits cutters , throw big to big passes , lobs , make hand offs or make back door passes . Think any bigs on top teams that get out the first round . Why it's so hard to get guys to comment on the real issue is clear now . You can't . So you regurgitate his achievements as if that's going to solve the insurmountable problem w him .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 5, 2014 10:42:48 AM
^^^The team went from 21 wins to 43 and made it to the first round of the playoffs with Jefferson. So you are saying no matter who they add in the off season they can't go farther? That is a ridiculous assertion.
Posted by: Hank | Jun 5, 2014 11:44:44 AM
Congrats to Big Al for this great recognition.
His selection to the All NBA third team means he was voted as the third best NBA center, behind Joakim Noah and Dwight Howard.
Al Jefferson also came in 8th in the vote for NBA MVP this season. I don't need to list all the big name stars coming behind him in this vote. Here's a reminder: he was also selected twice Eastern Conference Player of the Month in 2014. He is one of only four players to get this award, and one of two only to get it twice this season, the other being LeBron.
Of course, this doesn't matter to Ironman.
To him, only his opinions matter.
The aggregate vote of 125 sports journalists and broadcasters (some of them coaches), who look at each player's overall achievements, and are evidently aware of players' strengths as well as weaknesses, means nothing to him. Guess what, your opinion also means nothing, to most Hornets' fans.
You're reciting for the 999th time the list of your favorite offensive plays, and you're accusing Al of not following your “instructions”. This is ridiculous: he is a great offensive player, playing precisely the way he does.
One of your favorite accusations is that he's not passing. It's completely false, no matter how often you repeat it. Just by watching the games, I can see Al passing a lot, and not only when he's double teamed. Being 7th in assists among NBA centers is the stat that confirms this.
Of course, Al Jefferson is great in offense, and is not one of the good defensive centers of this league. But to say that he does nothing in defense, or that his defense is horrible, is false too.
We know he's not a rim protector. But defense is about more than that, it has different aspects.
How many people are aware that you can find Al Jefferson ranked as no less than 12th in the league, in the Basketball Reference DEFENSIVE ratings? No, I didn't drink anything but water before posting this.
Before anybody gets too agitated about it:
I'm certainly not saying that our Al is the 12th best DEFENSIVE player in the NBA! I can see the weaknesses in his defense too.
And still, this defensive rating from a serious source, as Basketball Reference is, means something and has its importance. It means that they take into account all the aspects of defense, including defensive rebounding (which is a very important part of it), also steals and blocks, plus other individual defensive stops a player gets, and they come up with a composite number. It shows that Big Al is contributing to defense too, after all.
And again, the great awards and recognitions he got this season are based - as for all players - on the OVERALL evaluation of the players' contributions to their teams, at both ends of the floor.
Posted by: Sandy | Jun 5, 2014 1:40:53 PM
^^^Great post. Game Set Match. If Iron Man and NASTAR had any self respect they would slink away never to be heard from again. Which means you should expect them to post again real soon. Ha!
Posted by: Professor X | Jun 5, 2014 1:52:55 PM
"and no....nobody wants brook lopez. dude is way overpaid"
Only 2 centers in the league had a PER over 25, and one was Brook Lopez...but "nobody wants" him? How is it possible to be "overpaid" and "unwanted" at the same time? Tell you who nobody wants is Buttfumble! Including his current coach!!
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 5, 2014 7:21:31 PM
And there is NASTARIRONMAN.
Posted by: BG | Jun 5, 2014 7:32:59 PM
Lol. Lol. Did everyone one see the bigs to bigs passing from the Heat and the Spurs ? The willing sacrifices the stars made to share the ball and make the extra pass and the pass after the extra pass ? Good luck doing anything like that w Jefferson the ball hog on the ct . No . It matters not whom they bring in . You must break the sick selfish culture of not sharing the ball . Jefferson won't do it when he's doubled or tripled . Even tho someone has to be open . The two teams move the ball when no matter what . It's breeds man movement . Jeffersons USEAGE breeds just the opposite . It's been this way for ten yrs . Ask The fans and pundits of Utah , Minny and the Celtics . On good teams , the ball finds guys for easy layups . Everyone on the team can make a layup . How many layups did the Spurs get ? How many times did Parker get in the paint and dish ? Kemba won't make the sacrifices either when he gets inside . It's the culture that must change . Some day , you clowns will address the failure to move the ball and pass instead of trying to defend ball hogs by vomiting their achievements .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 5, 2014 11:50:42 PM
Any attempt at defending Jeffersons pitiful defense is deplorable . Be real . It's hopeless . The guy conserves energy to score . He refuses to put even the slightest effort cheating his teammates who try to play on both ends . It's a layup line down the middle most nights . If Henderson and Mkg aren't in the game , it's a sure loss . Both must defend their guys and provide huge help coverage . Clifgird should have some balls and respect to provide easy buckets for them . It's what coaches do for slashers and cutters . They are not shooters . Get a point gd that can facilitate . The wings will flourish . If not , ship them out and get some spot up shooters that will play as much defense as Jefferson .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 5, 2014 11:58:48 PM
Just when you think Iron Man could not be any dumber. Who exactly are these "bigs" on Miami? They played one actual center and he was in for 18 minutes, Bigs from Miami. Wow. Just wow. Ignorant.
Posted by: Hank | Jun 6, 2014 6:36:48 AM
Lol. You guys will make any excuse . Seriously . Some of you need to learn the basics as to bb . The Heat have bigs . As in Bosh , Birdman and actually James . They're power towards or centers usually . These guys make the sacrifices and selflessly pass to each other to anyone that has the better shot . The Spurs do as well . Duncan is priceless . He shares the ball willingly w role players for the benefit of the team . Splitter and DIAW do as well . The way to beat the Heat is the pick and roll . What're the roller hits a cutter . They ripped the Heat apart last night doing this . Jefferson can not roll . Kemba can't run the pick and roll bc he's too small among other things . The Cats had no chance . They still don't bc the number one play used over 30% of the time to break down defenses is mothballed . Worse , these two can't defend it either . Name a team ever that has gotten out of the first round w no pick and roll . Then name one that got out that couldn't defend it . You guys can keep up w the jokes and vomiting the awards . But in reality , if the Hornets want to win , it won't be w either of these two starting or getting the highest USEAGE and most minutes . The Heats strength is perimeter defense . You pound it inside by having a post player mid block or low block who's a roller and passer . I called for this to be Zeller all series . He's the only one that could do it . The dump Into Jeffeson only played into the Heats hands ESP bc he holds the ball even if he rarely passes . You simply cannot beat them unless there's crisp , quick , timely ball movement that shifts their defense . Or you run the pick and roll . Neither was done by the Cats nor can it when you have Jefferson . His former teams figured it out . The Cats will as well this yr . I feel sorry for him . .. To a degree bc he hasn't learned a thing . By the time he learns to pass , share it , make sacrifices for teammates and make teamates better as stars must , he will be out the league .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 6, 2014 8:38:20 AM
Charlotean . I'm w you until you list Biz as your starting four . He's too slow . He can't stay in front of fours and for sure can't defend them up top . His offense is reduced to a point blank dunk . If Jefferson plays the four , it's the same result . Clifford knows this . When there's a pick and roll where Jefferson must switch on a four on a high pick and roll , he never comes out to pick him up knowing full well he will get exposed bc he's very slow . McRoberts is not the answer bc his defense is bad . And he has zero offense inside the arc . Payne , if he's the right size , can play inside and out and play defense . This includes on ball defense , help defense , rim protection , paint protection and making guys change shots which causes misses . If not , try to get Horford . Both would be huge upgrades . Bc of the so many things Horford could do than Jefferson on offense and defense that benefits the team , I would rush to trade them straight up . If not , add him .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 6, 2014 8:57:21 AM
can't stay in front of 4's? he was switching in pick and rolls to cover lebron and did fine.
lebron. run the tape back.
and i posted before i realized duncan wasn't one of the 3 4's also. i get the griffin/love/aldridge thing, but i don't get jefferson over duncan.
so jefferson was deserving, but not more so than duncan, jordan, or a healthy gasol. the grizzlies were night and day with and without gasol and they won 50 games in the west on his back. we were the same with and without jefferson and won 43 in the east.
hate what i'm saying, but it's just factual.
and let's not let the drating fool us sandy......carlos boozer was above him too and NOBODY believes that boozer is a good defender either. similar to individual plus/minus defensive rating is a lineup stat that they are trying to attribute to individuals. it's a better indicator than raw +/-, but only by a little bit. jefferson can benefit from the defenders around him and the scheme and the competition (there were not a lot of good offensive teams in the eastern conference this year) but that doesn't change the fact that on tape......when teams went at him......they destroyed him. just like when he went at them, he destroyed them.
al will have us in the 40 wins no doubt. but it's going to take something more to get us to contention. and I don't mean something around him. something more than him.
everybody wants to focus on our fringe players and blame them....like henderson. henderson isn't the problem. he could play on miami and win a ring. he could play for the clippers or the spurs or the pacers. he's not a #1 or #2 guy. our #1 and our #2 aren't on the level (or anywhere close) to a lebron-wade or george-west or paul-griffin or harden-howard or kobe-gasol or parker-duncan or even gasol-randolph or lillard-aldridge. that's the problem. our rotation is SOLID. our top end talent is lacking.
jefferson is our best current option but that doesn't make him good enough to contend. MKG is the actual best talent on the roster, he's just an effing baby and we aren't building around HIM when we should. maybe they're just waiting until they sign him to a reasonable extension first (which would be pretty brilliant but we all know that's not what they're doing and i fully expect MKG to be playing elsewhere in a few years or months or days - draft approaching).
again, he was absolutely deserving but not more so than duncan or jordan or healthy gasol.
and its an indictment of charlotte sports when jefferson is the hero, gerald henderson is the enemy, and boris diaw somehow gets booed when he comes to the cable box like he ever did anything worthy of that in his career here or elsewhere.
Posted by: charlottean | Jun 6, 2014 9:31:00 AM
Iron Man. So now whoever plays the the 4 or 5 spot is defined as a big like Al Jefferson? The Heat can play the way the do for one reason only. Lebron. How did that great passing "big" offense work without him? You are beyond moronic.
Posted by: Hank | Jun 6, 2014 10:01:41 AM
Strange how the Hornets get a selection on the All-NBA team and it is met with disdain. This team was a laughingstock 2 years ago. They have 2 first round picks and plenty of cap space. This should be an exciting summer rather than one filled with such hate.
Further, it is ridiculous to compare the Hornets to the Spurs or the Heat. Each of those teams has multiple first ballot hall of famers.
Let the Hornets continue to grow and support them rather than having a fan base filled with haters.
RE: Diaw: Diaw is booed at the cable box because he gave up on the team and not because he is terrible. I loved him while he was here when he tried.
Posted by: Jeff Otah | Jun 6, 2014 10:58:18 AM
Let me make sure I read something correctly. Ironman, did you really just type that the Hornets should trade Al for ROBIN Lopez?....... WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?!?!?! You meant Brooke, right?
Posted by: TheRealJD | Jun 6, 2014 11:04:08 AM
I have seen inside Iron Man's mind. It is a very very disturbing place.
Posted by: Professor X | Jun 6, 2014 12:17:04 PM
Iron man, you claim Kemba can't play the pick and roll "because he is too smal among other reasons". I'm intrigued on how being "too small was the first thing that came to your mind, however, arguably the best pick and roll PG in the NBA right now is Chris Paul who is sligty smaller than Kemba. Also, JJ Barea is and was an incredible pick and roll PG and he is not even 6 feet, same for Isaiah Thomas.
Let me inform you that being small is indeed one of the best attributes to run the Pick and Roll. No big PG has ever been great at the Pick and Roll, all the best at it are 6'2" or smaller. Westbrook, Rose, Wall are all average at best in the P&R, D-Will is quite good (clearly an exception), so is Dragic and so was Steve Nash. One of the best at it was Isaiah Thomas (Pistons) and John Stockton, all clearly small PGs.
Posted by: RobC | Jun 6, 2014 2:09:22 PM
Is amazing how for the last 3 years everyone complained about the Bobcats being the laughing stock of the NBA. Now they finally have a great coaching staff, a plan, direction, very good players, young talent, draft picks and Cap space. They finally showed signs of a solid playoff team and all you do is complain....because they were swept by the 2 time defending champs, while missing their best player (Big Al) and the second best wing defender (J. Taylor). Or is it because they didnt make it to the finals? Or did not win a championship. Just FYI, the first time the Thunder made the playoffs they lost to the 2 time defending champs (Lakers) in 5 games. And they had their entire team, the current MVP and 3 of the Top 25 players in the NBA right now.
Posted by: RobC | Jun 6, 2014 2:15:34 PM
charlottean, my point was very clear:
It's not that Al Jefferson would be a good defensive center, it's that he's contributing in defense too. To say that he does nothing in defense is wrong.
"similar to individual plus/minus defensive rating is A LINEUP STAT that they are trying to attribute to individuals.", you said.
Sorry to tell you, this is false. As opposed to those famous +/- stats (which I never trusted), the defensive rating is a purely individual composite statistic.
"Defensive Rating estimates how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court.
The core of the Defensive Rating calculation is the concept of the INDIVIDUAL Defensive Stop." It goes on, in every detail of the complex calculation method, on www.basketball-reference.com. It's all about individual stops per 100 possessions.
If you want to say it's a very imperfect method of ranking players' defense, I agree (I actually said it earlier). But, to disregard it is completely wrong.
By the way, long before I ever referred to this advanced statistic, I kept mentioning that yes, Al Jefferson is doing things in defense too - the most important of them being his very good defensive rebounding.
Posted by: Sandy | Jun 6, 2014 2:52:58 PM
What's new? It seems like the same trolls are making the SAME tired arguments.
Anyways, congrats to Big Al. He is one of the handful of players that you can build your offense around....that there is really no matchup answer for 1 on 1.
Bigger question is...is he the greatest 1 on 1 player in Charlotte Hornets/Bobcats history?
Rice was probably the best overall offensive player while LJ had the most talent. I would say Baron but his best days came in NO. Big Al would have a strong case. IMO, I would rank them:
1. Big Al
3. Mashburn (pretty much unstoppable when he had the midrange game going)
Honorable mention: J-Rich, Mason, Crash, Baron, Ricky Davis (yes Ricky Davis), Kenny Gattison
Posted by: cornchip | Jun 6, 2014 9:22:14 PM
i don't disregard the stat in its entirety, i'm saying it has its flaws. and you might want to RE READ that equation. it is not an individual stat on it's own. and it doesn't account for volume. biz has a better offensive rating than al for that very reason. he's NOT the better offensive player. re read that equation, please.
they keep trying to make baseball stats work with basketball and they aren't isolating variables. defensive rating is a good ESTIMATE, but you can still have a poor defender like jefferson or boozer get a high rating every few years.
and jefferson absolutely does good things on defense. he has good hands that lead to steals and the occasional blocked shot. he is smart enough to know positioning (when he chooses not to move out of the way). he has a wide body which both eats up space, bodies up 5's in a post up 1 on 1, and as you mentioned........rebounds well defensively.
a lot of that comes standard with a big man though. and should absolutely come standard with a 13.5mm/year 3rd team all-nba big man.
no matter how you cut it.......he is (depending how you cast gasol and duncan position-wise) the best scoring center in the game and an elite offensive center and one of the worst if not THE worst defensive starting center.
and it is mostly by choice. he can't choose to be slow footed and lack length, but he chooses to get out of the way when guys drive at him and he chooses not to step out and help MKG in pick in role when lebron is just draining open 3 after open 3 off of screens from chris bosh.
he just chooses not to play defense.
and you can't argue that he had a better season than duncan or jordan. jordan was downright DOMINANT in playoff games this year and as noted, led the league in rebounds and fg%, 2nd to ibaka in blocks, and as limited as he is offensively............
let's talk about how much of an individual stat that offensive (and defensive) rating is with him having the 5th highest in the league. come on sandy, you're smarter than this. he benefited from paul and griffin and others. it's not a flawless stat. the general premise is there and it's not that the stat is lying (like +/- does) but the stat can be misleading for certain players.
Posted by: charlottean | Jun 7, 2014 12:52:13 AM
"MKG is the actual best talent on the roster, he's just an effing baby and we aren't building around HIM when we should."
Charlottean, how long you going to use the he's young excuse? How many other young players have developed and surpassed MKG that were drafted AFTER him? He is severely one dimensional and not shown any willingness to improve offensively. So lets build around a "baby" that has a hitch shot and no offensive game lol.
Posted by: D.W.G. | Jun 7, 2014 6:23:18 AM
DWG .. All you can do is call out posters about stuff you know zero about . Mkg is one of the best finishers in the game in transition . He's very underutilized in this regard bc Clifford wants to keep turnovers low to the detriment of getting transition buckets . Kemba most times , walks the ball up court so he can be involved in the offense in half ct sets further thwarting precious transition buckets .
Mkg can flash in the post and jump hook as well as more than half the players in the league . He can cut and finish w the best of them but the pass to the cutter is rarely made here . He can as well finish w layups given to him by a roller off the pick and roll which is never run . To say he's one dimensional is unfounded . But what do you really know about bb ? Really ?
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 7, 2014 10:59:17 AM
And all these fancy advanced stats do not tell you anything close to the truth . Jefferson is a horrific defender . Does he stop players driving down the lane ? No. Does he block shots ? No . Does he provide any help defense ? No . Does he get involved w trapping opposing players ever ? Hell no . Does he pick up the ball handler on high pick and rolls after the ball handlers defender has been screened off ? Lol . Hell no !!!! Ask Mkg if he did once when James or Melo torched him . Does he change shots in the paint ? No . Does he play league average on ball defense or close ? No . He's hidden in Clifford's brilliant defensive schemes . But at some point in that scheme , he's called on to do one or more of the aforesaid things but can't or won't . You simply cannot get out the first round w him .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 7, 2014 11:08:22 AM
Paul and Isiah are far stronger players who have way better lower torsos than little Kemba . Stockton was taller . But all three were way better decision makers w the ball , could run the pick and roll and had much better ct vision than Kemba . And there are taller players who ran or run the pick and roll w the best of them . Try Magic . James and Kidd for starters .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 7, 2014 11:13:15 AM
I love this team . I admire Mj . I want what he wants .. A championship . You guys want to win regular season games . Kemba and Jefferson are wonderful for that . .. But zero else . You must start w two way players at every position . Period . If a center plays only on one side if the ball , it better be defense . It has to be . The point gd has to facilitate and defend too . There's no way around it . That's why the Pacers can't get over the hump bc the pt gd cannot facilitate just like here . But at least he plays defense . Whomever the of is , he must be a two way player . You have two wings that are two way players . Add a back up wing that's a lights out shooter not a journeyman that can play sf and sg if you intend to keep Mkg . Get a ot gd that can facilitate and defend . Add a off that's a two way player and shot blocker like Payne or Horford who can shot block . You will get out the first round .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 7, 2014 2:09:22 PM
As usual, Charlottean trying to talk sense…..
Bloody right developing around MKG (while using Al since we've signed him…… still hate his defense/love those post moves ….. but what can we do now…)
Posted by: the Dude | Jun 7, 2014 11:33:29 PM
that defensive rating is a flawed stat for what it leaves out. There is a separate stat, for close range shooting percentage a player allows - which is evidently significant for a center's defense; THAT one of course supports the criticism on AJ's defense, but it's not included in the defensive rating, it's separate from it.
Yet, the defensive rating is valuable for what it includes, which is a lot of important stuff: defensive rebounds, steals and blocked shots, and, in addition to these "an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks." (there should be no arguing about the last item on the list - an estimate - because it's working the same way for all players).
That's why a prestigious site like Basketball Reference publishes it.
Briefly, the individual Def. Rat. stat is valuable for what it includes, and flawed too, for some important stuff it leaves out.
If you see the whole picture, then the exaggerations - from "horrible defense" to "the worst defensive center" (which you just added to spice up your post) - should just vanish.
About that last "spicing", I'll say it too: you're too smart to indulge in such nonsense (smart, but awfully stubborn).
How do you like Aaron Gray's defense?! Or the beloved Ajinca? Do you know he allows an even higher percentage of close range FGs than Big Al? That's why the defensive master Larry Brown didn't like Alexis: he's long, he's athletic, also has a soft shooting touch, but, he has slow reaction time, which doesn't do much good in defense and rebounding.
Hey, I'm not against Ajinca, I'm glad he came back from France a better player - but praising him and attacking Big Al...
You probably want bigger names. Andre Drummond, Spencer Hawes, Channing Frye, DeeMarcus Cousins, Nikola Pekovic, and many others are actually doing less in defense than Al Jefferson.
It's too easy to look at Roy Hibbert or Kendrick Perkins (these two, for defense only), or Joakim Noah, and then say: see, that's what you want from a center in defense, and that's what you don't get from our center! This is not being aware that Big Al actually contributes in defense equally to, or more than, many other NBA centers.
Biz is truly a very capable defensive center, and that's why I like having him as a back-up. If the Thunder think they need the non-offensive talent Kendrick Perkins, then I think we should also keep Biz.
But OVERALL, Big Al gives you a lot more than these two defensive specialists, and also, he's better overall than All Star Hibbert.
"and it is mostly by choice.", you're saying about Al's weak, non-contesting, defensive plays. Now, let's connect the dots, since you're also aware that "he can't choose to be slow footed and lack length"; yep, that's him.
And that's why, if he fought to contest everything in the paint - kind of forgetting that he's not Joakim, or Emeka (in his healthy days...), he'd be quickly running in foul trouble, and he wouldn't be able to stay long minutes on the floor.
But fortunately, he's a very smart player who is aware of his physical limitations as well as of his exceptional offensive skills, and understands what it means to keep the right balance between them.
Do your best while using your strengths, don't try being what you can't be (a great defensive center), because that would actually do more harm than good.
Do you remember Ammo trying desperately to please LB, and then running in foul trouble very often (no quick feet in defense too)?
This is why Steve Clifford, a defensive minded coach, likes Big Al. Because - unlike Larry Brown, who always demands from players to fit in his system, which works wonderfully for some, and can't work with others - coach Clifford is a great believer in using players to their strengths, and not asking them to be something else than who they are.
Playing offense his way, and doing what he does - which is something, but much less than great - in defense, that's playing Big Al the right way, which is the way that maximizes his contribution to the team OVERALL.
It is the way that made Al Jefferson our best player last season, a season in which the team more than doubled its wins total, and also earned him all the league-wide awards and recognitions I was glad to mention before.
Posted by: Sandy | Jun 8, 2014 12:33:08 AM
i did not at all throw it in there to "spice up" my post. i said it because its true. you naming a lot of fringe guys doesn't change that. pekovic is absolutely a better defensive player than jefferson and he's far from great. FAR from it. i mean he's bad. but jefferson is worse because he CHOOSES to. he just doesn't contest anything. the best thing he does defensively is not turn the ball over offensively.
you said I was wrong about defensive rating having a team element to it. it includes team fg% and possessions/stops. one of those pesky facts i throw out there that you hate so much. that's why boozer and al are on that list. they aren't guarding anybody so they aren't getting lit up directly to take their number down and they play on good defensive teams with defensive minded coaches.
who were they stopping in the post this year? horford missed most of the year. so did brook lopez. he didn't have to guard anybody and when he did.....he didn't stop them. cousins gave him the business twice. gortat looked like shaq against him. vucuvic only had 24 and 23 against him. the 2 times we beat orlando.....nik didn't play. you keep acting like i'm making the stuff up because i don't like al. i don't like al BECAUSE OF THIS. the tape doesn't lie. i don't know what games you watch that make you believe that he's not a horrible defender.
16 teams in the playoffs, 8 in the second round. those centers were: duncan, bosh(bird), hibbert, perkins/adams, jordan, gasol, garnett/plumlee, and gortat.
not channing frye, pekovic, drummond or demarcus cousins. all of whom i'd take defensively over jefferson (maybe not frye) but none of which i would take offensively over jefferson (maybe a sane cousins). i'm not saying you can't win 40 games with jefferson not playing defense. clearly you can pull that off most years. i'm saying you can't contend. that's the entire point. those guys aren't contending either.
and ajinca? seriously? larry brown didn't like him because he was 19 years old and weighed like 195 pounds. that was just impatience. but was he ever a defensive juggernaut? no. i really don't know why that was brought up. i never said he was, nor did i say we could have won a championship with ajinca starting at the 5. i just said we gave up on him too early. he's 25 now, added the weight and even in spite of his effed up development (lack of) he's back in the nba and clocked more minutes this year than any year prior. and he still averaged more steals/blocks per possession than jefferson. and he is blatantly NOT someone i consider a great defender.
you want to build a statue for the guy that won us 43 games. sorry......38. in a tanking eastern conference. remind me again why everybody hated boris diaw so much? last I checked he didn't miss a start and played big minutes in 3 comparable seasons here. doubled the win total while turning over the roster. that's not improvement. it's a different team. dunlap doubled the win total too and that wasn't good enough for you. and he didn't bring in a bunch of vets to do it.
he didn't have a better season than jordan or duncan. he just didn't. gasol neither. he had a good year. we will never contend with him as the guy. that's the only argument i ever make. it will never happen. we could contend with him being in a lessor role maybe but never with him being the guy. he's just not that kind of player.
and talking about brown making guys play within his system (not arguing).....clifford isn't doing that with henderson and mkg? he's making the entire team play around al. how is that not the exact same thing?
Posted by: charlottean | Jun 8, 2014 2:49:31 AM
1. Defensive Rating is essentially an individual statistic. Three of its main components are individual achievement: defensive rebounding, blocked shots and steals. The other element - that estimate of stops - has the team aspect in it, but, it works by the same formula for all players.
You have a point in saying it favors players in a good defensive team. But you still discount the main individual aspects (as above).
2. Saying that your calling Big Al "the worst defensive center in NBA" is "spicing" was just being nice, not insulting. But, I also said it's nonsense (explained by awful stubbornness). I started on purpose with a marginal player, because ... if you're better than ANYONE, you're not the worst. I brought up Ajinca since your praising him is in a noteworthy contrast with your attacks on Al. It also put one more notch of distance between Big Al and "worst etc.".
Then, your opposing my examples of worse defending centers than AJ is based on personal opinion. You're entitled to it.
But numbers don't lie.
Moving on from Def. Rat. (which already sub-includes DR, Bl & St, + estimated contribution to team's defensive stops),
we can go to the stats that expose Al Jefferson as not being a rim protector.
If you'll bother to look at the stats I mentioned (when talking about Ajinca), of FG percentage allowed from close range (which is in the first place up to 5 ft, but also 5 to 9 ft range), which are important measurements of a center's defense, you'll be surprised to see how many centers are equal to, or worse (mainly worse) than, Al Jefferson in this regard. I knew for a while that there are worse defensive centers than him, but I was surprised to see how many are doing poorly at protecting the rim.
3. You disregarded the most important part of my argument above. Whatever Big Al is not fighting defensively by choice is precisely proof of his very good understanding of the game and of his place in it. It's the best way he can maximize his contribution to the team. WHY? I explained it in detail above.
4. When you refer to the team aspect in defensive rating, you don't realize how this undermines your most important point (which is, that we can't get too far with a center who is not a great defender).
The Bobcats were no less than the 4th best defensive NBA team last season. That, while our two best players - Big Al and Kemba - are primarily offensive assets, not defensive aces. Among the starters, only two out of five (the wings) are high grade defenders.
This is because coach Clifford is the main defensive asset of the team, because his defensive schemes made this one of the best defensive teams. And he didn't even teach them yet his most advanced defensive concepts...
And yet, same coach Clifford appreciates Al and Kemba a lot, and knows that we need another big time scorer in this team, in order to move up.
Which means: don't worry too much about the team's defense as a requirement for success.
We have coach Clifford to take care of this, even without having a starting five loaded with defensive talent.
Rather than have SUCH worries, listen to the defensive minded coach, who tells you that to continue moving up in this league, we need additional scoring punch.
5. Larry Brown always tries to either get the players who fit his system, or to re-mold the players he has so they'll fit his system. The latter method worked great with players like Billups and Felton, for instance - and didn't work out with many others.
Steve Clifford tries to get the best out of the roster given to him, according to the players' strengths. This is a huge difference of approach.
For LB, first comes HIS conception of "playing the right way", next comes working with the players, to get them to work within his system.
For coach Clifford, the offensive system is built around the players' strengths. The dominant role the post-up center and the scoring-but-also-passing point guard had in the Cats' offense last season was based on the players' strengths, not on any preconceived offensive system.
[I noticed a change, from a civil discussion of basketball in earlier posts, to a stiffer, more irritated and belligerent tone in your last one. I'm very used to this: always, you look like someone who can sustain an interesting conversation on b-ball at first, but then, when you don't have your way, you get irritated and unpleasant. Stubbornness...
No, I'm NOT accusing of you being rude, it didn't happen in THIS discussion, at least not yet. But the change of tone, that is able to turn any interesting conversation into worthless, repetitive and stubborn arguing, was already obvious. I mention this only because we've been through this, and much worse, countless times.]
Posted by: Sandy | Jun 8, 2014 4:15:58 AM
At the ninth pick in the draft for the hornets, I like Zach LaVine or James Young. At the 24th pick, I like PJ Hairston, Jordan Adams, or KJ McDaniels. At the 45th pick, I like (I know there are plenty of Carolina haters, but he would be good value at this pick) James McAdoo.
Posted by: will | Jun 8, 2014 9:40:23 AM
Arguing that Jefferson is not the worst starting center is baseless . Assuming for the moment Charlotean is incorrect , he's not far off . Making an argument that the team fares almost as well w Biz as the starting center is a testament not to Bizs skills ,which are non existent in certain respects , but supports how horrific Jefferson is in the middle .
Take Henderson and Mkg off this team , add the top shooters at sg and sf and watch how the defensive slide . Clifford must find a way to incorporate them both better into the offense as Pop and Thibbs would do . They are not spot up shooters . Henderson shoots league average from the arc , has improved each yr w even less minutes averaging 14 pts a game in an offense where he cannot get multiple touches to stay warm . .. Or easy buckets . Mkg may never be able to shoot from the field . Neither could Dr j. Get him a shot off the glass which is much kinder to his hitch . He still can score in transition , off the dribble and deep inside off post ups . But Clifford has no clue . Both are top 5 defenders at their respective positions . Forget that neither could touch and guard Wade or James . No other wings could touch them until they got to the finals . Name 5 guys better than either on defense at their positions . Name 10 guys all around better than Henderson on offense at sg . Include off the dribble , from the arc , field , finishing , transition and post ups . He won't make the spot up open jumper until another yr . It takes 5 yrs before these two way serious defenders build their offense out . Henderson will start for the Heat . They would move Wade to point . So would Mkg . They would start for Okc, Chicago , Memphis and Atlanta . Henderson would start for the Spurs . Ginobli at 36 , would come off the bench to save his legs . In all those situations , they would get easy buckets in transitions and in half ct sets to add to the 14 pt av. And 9 pt av. Why ? Bc the ball is shared . It finds you . It finds cutters . How many lobs did they get this yr ? Lol. These are athletes . Slashers . Not spot up shooters . Use them the correct way or ship them out . Then watch the gimmick defense slide . I've seen idiot blogs and articles , countless in number saying they need a wing shooter . They do . But you have them here too in Neal , Cdr and Tolliver . But what you really need is a system , pt gd and center who share the ball and hit open cutters in these two . And multiple screens to free them in ISO and off the dribble . The replacements outside of Afflao are a joke and waste of time . Each and everyone . The draftees won't produce until two yrs bc of lack of defense and strength alone outside of Payne who's a pf . I left ROF bc the idiocy as to the wings was beyond stupid DWG . Just like the clamor in yrs past for Reddick , Mayo , Tyreke , Shabazz or Mckemore . Ship them out . Watch the defense slide and get exposed . No amount of advanced stats will save the Hornets .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 8, 2014 9:48:25 AM
Post that w your boys DWG . I'm sure you will . Lol. Tell them I will be back when the season starts bc the bs is too high and only 10% of them have a clue . A few of them have deep inherent prejudices that shine thru . Most of the bloggers are good guys there but it's way too clickish w guys trying to impress others w how smart they are . Then there's guys like you . Who think they know bb but are lost in space .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 8, 2014 9:56:29 AM
Levine , Stauskas , young are all good picks . But if you're thinking they will perform better than Tolliver or even Cdr now , you're nuts . They will not beat these guys out . Nor Taylor , if he's ready . The dying need is a two way arc shooter at sf that's a vet who can help now . Then a two way stretch 4 pf that can block shots and protect the rim and paint . Then a back up defending pass first pt gd . Period . You must keep Tolliver . You must get a pf that won't get abused on the defensive end . I love McRoberts but unless he intends to seriously bulk up like whatever the Heat use to get everyone those deltoid muscles , he can't start . Plus you need a pf that can play inside at the foul line to pass inside and out and to cutters . I like Zeller . But he better bulk up too . He can pass better than most think , block shots and take guys off the dribble . The Hornets need a serious strengthening program . For Kemba , McRoberts , Zeller ,Cdr and Neal . They need a conditioning program for Henderson and Jefferson .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 8, 2014 1:26:43 PM
belligerent tone? in text. right.
read the effing equation for defensive rating. you are just flat out factually incorrect in so many parts of your argument and yet you are too blind to see it. read the effing equation.
Posted by: charlottean | Jun 8, 2014 2:13:40 PM
You can't strength program for height
Posted by: the Dude | Jun 8, 2014 3:07:53 PM
Part of Kembas problem is he's too weak besides being too little to fight over screens . He has small arms but they can be beefed up . He could play better overall defense if he bulked his upper and lower body up . Paul may be around his height but he's sturdier up top and below . Teams look to put Kemba in the pick and roll to get an easy payday .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 8, 2014 3:36:54 PM
And Pekovic, Cousins and Drummond are not doing less on defense than Jefferson . That's totally an out n out fabrication . What's worse is a claim that Clifford likes Jeffersons defense . This is preposterous . Clifford may put up w it for the time being but he can't nor would any coach in his right mind , like Jeffersons defense .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 8, 2014 3:47:28 PM
The nuances of defense are lost on People here. It is not all shot blocking. Al cant play D. Kemba can't. Mcroberts not exactly known for it. Yet the Hornets have a great defense. Obviously they comprehend defensive concepts and somehow execute at a high level. And it is not that they slow it down. Look at shooting %. Deandre, Howard, et al running around. Playing out of position. Trying to make up for other poor defenders and gambling for blocks when they should stay on the ground. Al is much much better than he gets credit for. Good positioning. Quick hands. Does not get get pushed off the block. Haters hate, but some of this is ridiculous. Top 3 center in the NBA! As voted by the coaches. Let me know when you all get a job coaching an NBA team.
Posted by: Hank | Jun 8, 2014 4:41:29 PM
People here crack me up. We are lucky to have an NFL and NBA team here. Went to a knights game. No one cares about the game and the food is ridiculously expensive. Won't go back. Went to a lacrosse game. It is like watching a scrimmage. No one cares. Fun for 10 year olds. Gets no coverage any where. NFL and NBA is only thing that makes this town somewhat big league. Both team made the playoffs and look like they are getting better. People arguing about garbage when we finally have something to be happy about.
Posted by: Speedy | Jun 8, 2014 4:51:15 PM
Nice touch by the Hornets with the ad congratulating Big Al on his all nba status. Very well done!
Posted by: Hugo | Jun 8, 2014 7:14:29 PM
I’m done arguing on this issue.
I have though two factual notes, for the purpose of clarification and of correcting misunderstandings only:
1. charlottean, you need to pay attention to that Def. Rat. formula. It requires several steps. The formula uses Stops %, which is calculated based on Stops = Stops 1 + Stops 2. Stops 1 is a calculation based on individual defensive achievements: blocks, steals and defensive rebounding. If you want more detail, it multiplies these numbers by a quotient, which is based on the individual opponent players' offensive performance (offensive rebounding percentage and FG%).
My mistake was not to pay attention that a player's DFG%, which is the opponents' FG% that he allows (which is quite unfavorable to Big Al) is actually included in Stops 1.
See, DFG% is that stat which is bad for Al, and that I mentioned above separately - and still, he's doing great in Def. Rat., although the formula includes DFG%!
Stops 2 is an estimate of any individual player's share (percentage) of such team's defensive stops that ARE NOT reflected in any individual stats category; this component of the formula skews the result in favor of players in good defensive teams.
This is what I mentioned in my posts above.
"Three of its main components are individual achievement: defensive rebounding, blocked shots and steals. The other element - that estimate of stops - has the team aspect in it."
So what's the point of the nit-picking in your last post??
Remember, this started from you claiming that "defensive rating is A LINEUP STAT that they are trying to attribute to individuals" and that "it is NOT AN INDIVIDUAL stat on its own.” Evidently, you were wrong: Stops 1 IS an individual stat, Stops 2 only is an individual estimate based on team performance, and can be compared to the +/- stat.
I acknowledged in my previous comment the team component, which favors players like AJ.
You never acknowledged your mistake.
You could've laid it to rest; instead, you started nit-picking.
And yes, language has enough flexibility that you can use "tone" regarding a written text (rather than the longer "belligerent manner of writing"!). Just like using "I said"/ "you said", also regarding written texts.
2. Louis the Lolman. You have to realize that I'm not arguing with you anymore for quite some time. It's a pure waste of time. Let alone you're too closed minded to sustain any meaningful conversation (all you care about is repeating endlessly your own favorite ideas, and you happily ignore anything that doesn’t match them, including facts), you don't even understand a different viewpoint.
An example: "What's worse is a claim that Clifford likes Jeffersons defense ."
Crazy. I never said this, and I don't know anybody who would.
What I said is that Steve Clifford (a defensive minded coach) appreciates a lot Big Al and Kemba (offensive minded players), because they are OVERALL our two best players. I said that coach Clifford likes Big Al (and Kemba too) because Coach
“is a great believer in using players to their strengths, and not asking them to be something else than who they are.”
This means that he likes them for their overall contributions to the team, which are above those of the other players, and IN SPITE of the fact that AJ and KW are not great defenders.
Again, this wasn’t rearguing this issue. These were clarification points only.
Posted by: Sandy | Jun 8, 2014 11:43:12 PM
i'm not the one nitpicking. i said it was a stat that can be skewed by help from teammates. and in jefferson's case, that's exactly what is happening. convenient that the numbers weren't in line with his career numbers, no? you said it was a purely individual stat and it isn't. you clearly still don't understand the equation. it doesn't just factor in stops that "have a team element", it straight up gives everybody on the floor credit for every team stop. in addition to every opponent missed fg whether it was your man or not. read the effing equation. learn statistics.
it includes individual measures, but it also includes team measures. thus the skew. i'm not arguing. it isn't an arguable point. you just don't know what you're talking about (again).
we all get that you love jefferson and hate reality. you don't have to keep picking fights to prove it.
I mean look over your argument about al's great defense and the examples you point to vs. the ones I point out. You point to lottery teams and guys that are losing their jobs or aren't even really centers.
channing frye started alongside miles plumlee.
pekovic didn't make the playoffs and is probably in the process of losing his job to gorgui dieng because they actually starting winning some games with pek out. and peks still a better defender than jefferson. just looks horrible playing with rubio and kevin martin.
since i'm so wrong about jefferson being the worst defensive center.....let's run the list of guys who are better. since i'm nit picking and everything. i mean there's no way that if jefferson is ACTUALLY the 26th worst that calling him the worst would be nitpicking, right?
jordan, howard, hibbert, noah, gasol, gasol, dalembert or wright, horford, chandler, sanders, hawes, vucuvic, plumlee, plumlee, lopez, bird, hickson or mcgee or mosgov, duncan or splitter, valancunius, gortat, perkins or adams, bogut, let's NOT lie and say that he's a better defender than drummond, anybody new orleans rolled out there last year was better (withey, stiemsma, jason smith and yes, even ajinca - they have davis it doesn't matter), utah and boston didn't even play centers last year. neither did sacramento, really, but let's give you cousins for the sake of who gives an eff, let's give you pekovic too even if it means we're all lying and full of ish,
so yeah.....24/29 and that's by throwing you cousins, pekovic, utah, boston, and philly. all of which are highly debatable. especially if you threw hawes to the sixers and varejao/zeller for the cavs.....and remind yourself that the sixers have noel who might be THE rim protector going forward. and then throw in the fact that utah, cleveland, and boston are all in play for embiid...... and dieng might be starting over pekovic regardless of his contract.
sounds an awful lot like nitpicking to me dude.
feel free to join us in reality. the dude does not play defense no matter what way you want to look at a stat. he posted career best defensive numbers for a reason(s): we have elite defenders on the wings, good defensive scheme, offensive scheme that limits transition buckets, and just about every center in the eastern conference missed the year this past season.
he isn't even close to sniffing the middle of starters by defensive rank. not even close. elite on offense, nowhere near elite on defense. and as i've pointed out time and time again......you cannot win in the nba if you don't protect the paint. that's not an opinion.
and what mistake was it that i made that you're referring to me having not acknowledged it. you said it was an individual stat and then you try to rephrase ish instead of saying "whoops, my bad". you were wrong.
just like you're wrong again where you deny saying that you never said clifford likes al's defense. you've said that soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times this year. stop effing lying to yourself dude. he sucks on defense. just get over that and move on. he's a horrible defender. he isn't picking his spots wisely. he isn't playing defense at all. he isn't going to win in this league so why the eff are we building around him?
reading it belligerently doesn't make it written belligerently. corrections and hostility are not the same. you should learn that. then again, you have so many other things you have to learn that you probably shouldn't worry about it.
let me remind that you are arguing on behalf of al jefferson's defense. it does not get more insane and delusional than that.
now proceed with telling me how disrespectful and critical it was of me to break down exactly how erroneous everything you say is. it doesn't get you anywhere closer to being right.
Posted by: charlottean | Jun 9, 2014 1:15:06 AM
And now that Jefferson is horrific on defense is settled ... This is the key beyond that ... Look what Pop said last night .. " move it or die " .. At the same time look whAt Spo says.. " if it sticks , guys can't get in Rhytm " ... This is after both teams were moving the ball overall but ever so slightly , it stopped moving for a time or two . Imagine what they would say to the ball stickers Kemba ( overdribbling ) and Jefferson who shoots it w three defenders draping him. ( all game).. Yeah . I know nothing . All I preach is ball n man movement bc it's the only thing that wins .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 9, 2014 9:08:26 AM
71-159 in the Kemba (Shorty) Era.
0-8 playoff record in franchise history.
Worst single season in NBA history.
Worst franchise won/loss record in NBA history.
6 coaches in 10 seasons.
Laughingstock of the Wisconsin Badgers hoops team....
....we are The Boobs.
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 9, 2014 10:33:12 AM
^^^You can ad another donation to local schools. What a hate monger. There is a list a mile long of positives over the last year alone. I am so glad they brought me back. Thank you Hornets! Can't wait for the draft and free agency.
Posted by: Hugo | Jun 9, 2014 11:33:20 AM
And Sandy .. You came w the same pop culture behavioral science bs w me that you're trying here w Charlotean . And Nastars before . No one wants to hear it . When someone fails to agree w you , you try to analyze them . Who cares . It won't change the facts . Many here have no clue about bb fundamentals . They con where and pop jokes or insult bloggers . It's cute but doesn't change the facts . You come w the advanced stats trying to come up w an angle to defend a sick defender like Jefferson . There's in fact too many of advanced stats Gms that have slicked the owners and are running these franchises . Cho included , only to be running them into a ditch . Time reveals all . They passed on Lilliard bc Kemba was the pt gd of the future . And Carter Williams . When Kembas not a pt gd at all , thinking they had the next Westbrook who's taller , can pass in the paint , score at a bigger clip and can flat out defend . The Gms , the advanced ones , have their heads too far up their computers . ( yeah I stole it ) . Building around a sg that can't defend , shoot or pass or a center who's horrific on defense and can't pass is a joke . Nothing will save this franchise . It ain't about being happy . It's about winning playoff rounds getting to the finals . I will repeat it until judgement day , you can't get out the first round w either . The rest of the players are fine . It's these two hugely one dimensional , no defending , refusing to pass , selfish two .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 9, 2014 11:42:06 AM
The Spurs had 26 assists on 36 assited field goals and Pop said they didnt share the ball !!!!!!. Imagine what he would do if Cho called him about
Jefferson or Kemba for that reason alone . Then he looks at some tape w the lack of effort on defense and he would call Cho back up after initially hanging up the phone and do it again . Lol. Lol.
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 9, 2014 11:46:18 AM
You are wasting your breath Hugo. That guy hates everything Bobcats/Hornets. Tell him they made the playoffs. He will say they lost. Not that they made a huge leap. Tell him Big Al was all NBA. He will say 3rd team. Not 3rd best. Was that their record sure. The benefit of the comment? known only to the one they call ASSTAR, NASHOLE, etc! You get the picture. I thought he would go away. Not even close. Great thing about being as anonymous troll.
Posted by: Dave | Jun 9, 2014 11:47:08 AM
And Sandy . I'm a hardliner for a reason .. Bc there's no other way to build a winning franchise . Zero . You must have 4 of the 5 starters be two way players . Period . No exceptions . There cannot be a ball hog or heavy USEAGE guy on the starting unit that does not share the ball and never not share it when doubled . Period . That the offense must include big to big passing and wing cutters who are routinely hit . .. Each time open , each quarter , all game . That the pt gd or pt fd must get in the lane and facilitate to shrink and shift the defense all game . To the tune of near double digit assists . You must have a wing sharpshooter off the bench who shoots in the 40's from the arc . The bench must produce 28 pts on average . We have not touched on that here bc there's no passing system in place here yet . One big must protect the rim , the paint , play help defense and block shots on the starting unit and off the bench . Period . Clifford has the winning defensive schemes which you see other than what I submit which is the cause of playoff failure in huge part . The sg rotation is fine w Neal and Henderson as they produce 25 pts . The sf rotation should add a non journeyman veteran sharp shooter that can play at least league average defense . The pf position must have Zeller and a Payne like player rotation . One who can play inside and out , pass , score , defend and shot block . These are the hard line rules .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 9, 2014 12:00:51 PM
"Tell him they made the playoffs."
Air Minimum, You, and The Band of Slurpers are the ones who said just making the playoffs "isn't good enough", not me. The fact that it wasn't good enough (in your opinion) is what precipitated the dismantling and resulting futility of epic proportions never before seen in the NBA.
"Tell him Big Al was all NBA."
False, I like Big Al a lot and have never been anything but complimentary of him. Find a single post of me being critical of Al. Now, I'm also a realist and know that Al has a ton of miles on the odometer and leg injuries are very problematic for big men, so beware.
"Was that their record sure."
Sure was, His Minimum owns it, he's the W.O.A.T.!!
Let's not forget The Promises:
1. Repeated forays deep into the playoffs.
2. A championship contender.
What's been delivered is epic levels of failure as previously mentioned. You morons seem to have forgotten all The Promises (which you slurpers swallowed hook line & sinker) and now have flip-flopped and think simply making the playoffs constitutes success...
...which is it slurpers?
Seen the superstar quote yet slurpers? Who?
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 9, 2014 1:20:35 PM
Mj wants another superstar to come here . Who would that be ? Melo ? Lol. Neither Melo or will ever win a championship . .. Ever . No defense , won't pass and do not make the players around them better as a superstar must . Love will make this team better and he passes . He rebounds but is not a goid defender . But I would say he's an improvement at pf . Mj wants to fill seats , compete , win regular season games so he's on board w Jefferson who is a beast on offense . I get it . But soon , he will be on the hot seat like Bird .. Soon , everyone will see this team was built to go nowhere and is a waste of time bc it will have to be again rebuilt . They could have had Carter Williams . And the yr before , Lilliard . Both will anchor teams that will win , get out the first round and win championships . While Kemba will be sent to someone's bench and Jefferson will be sent to his 4 th team only to never get them farther than round one .. Ever .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 9, 2014 2:10:12 PM
So he decided a rebuild was in order and the 3rd season they make the playoffs and have draft picks and the cap space to continue to improve. Sure looks like he is on track to deliver on his promises. Is 47/48 wins next year another step forward? Getting past the first round next year. Does that satisfy anyone? or is this a never ending circle of bullshit by NASTAR. Safe to say the answer is yes.
Posted by: Hornets Hive | Jun 9, 2014 2:17:03 PM
Does "getting past the 1st round" constitute a "deep foray into the playoffs"? Or does one have to win two rounds to deliver on that promise?
Hornet Hive, your answer is?
Is Air Min talking about a max player? Who?
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 9, 2014 2:53:03 PM
Melo is a pipe dream....no way MJ is paying anywhere close to the luxury tax and I don't think the threshold will jump THAT much in the future. Howvever, if by some off chance he were to come here, we would instantly have a top 5 frontcourt in the NBA....maybe top 3. (MIA and OKC's are obviously better but we match up with HOU's and IND's).
Some of the similarities to the Pistons frontcourt might scare me, but McRoberts is a facilatator and Melo has far better perimeter skills than Josh Smith. Plus our small lineup of Kemba/Hendo (or Neal)/MKG/Melo/McRoberts would be an offensive nightmare for opposing teams.
Posted by: cornchip | Jun 9, 2014 3:09:58 PM
Sorry .. Melo , Jefferson and Kemba would never work . Two serious ball hogs and one overdribbling runt who can't shoot but continues to jack . There is not enough balls . Assume for the moment they shared the ball . Not one of them plays a drop of defense . All one on one w no defense out of the three .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 9, 2014 4:27:58 PM
Doesn't it only take winning 2 rounds to get to the conference finals?
Posted by: Dave | Jun 9, 2014 5:04:53 PM
ch., all you say there is a total distortion of what I said. You didn't say Def. Rat. is a LINEUP stat, right? You didn't completely ignore the individual aspect (Stops 1 in the formula), right?
Though, I quoted you on this.
I didn't acknowledge the team aspect (Stops 2 in the formula), and that, BEFORE your nit-picking post, right (though, the proof I did is right above here)? In your mind only.
And not only in your mind, also in Ironman's little mind too, I said coach Clifford likes Al's defense - though I explained very clearly (with quotes, again) that my viewpoint was quite different.
And keep ignoring important aspects of defense, such as defensive rebounding and steals, which are an important part of Big Al's high defensive rating. Keep ignoring the many centers - I mentioned above just a few of them - whose close range FG% allowed are equal to, or worse (mostly worse) than Al's. And many of them don't have his redeeming qualities (DR and St.).
I told you more than once that you live in a delusional world of your own (where, for instance, assessments of players' worth are often very different from those prevailing in the real world), and now you try to feel better by turning these words against me.
Well, I hope this really makes you feel better.
You and Louis the lolman are nuts. Your psychological issues lead you to take over this blog, and pollute it with an endless stream of repetitive negative comments.
When the vast majority of fans find reasons to feel really good about the team, you're dumping here your sick negativity: "the team didn't REALLY improve!". "next season, this team will be exposed as not good!". "Trade Al Jefferson for a 2nd round Draft pick! (ch.)" "Fire Steve Clifford!" (Ironman, a few months ago).
They go the wrong way, they didn't listen to the two self-appointed mentors/advisers!
- - -
In the real world, Big Al got all those awards I listed above, and I'll copy and paste them here again.
His selection to the All NBA third team means he was voted as the third best NBA center, behind Joakim Noah and Dwight Howard.
Al Jefferson also came in 8th in the vote for NBA MVP this season. I don't need to list all the big name stars coming behind him in this vote. Here's a reminder: he was also selected twice Eastern Conference Player of the Month in 2014. He is one of only four players to get this award, and one of two only to get it twice this season, the other being LeBron.
In the real world, Al Jefferson is the only Eastern Conference player who averaged a double-double last season.
In the real world, the Charlotte Bobcats have been the second most improved team in the NBA (just behind the Phoenix Suns) last season.
In the real world, the two highest contributors to the team are Big Al and Kemba - those players who the two repetitive nuts keep attacking.
In the dark corners of ch's and Louis' minds, all the results, positive stats, votes of 125 professional writers don't matter.
Only their loony viewpoints matter.
And the madmen are ... mad. Always mad.
They have their recipes on how the team should be run, from FO to coaching, and the team is not following them! How dare they!
Of course this team is on a WRONG path,. because they wouldn't listen to these two pathetic characters. So, of course the team makes them mad.
You know, you ridiculous loons, if you were not so overly insistent on endlessly campaigning for your ideas, if you just posted comments like any other fans, without repeating them HUNDREDS of times, in the apparent insane belief that you can somehow have an impact on the team 's direction (NO? that's not what you believe? So why do you keep campaigning?!), then nobody would care much. State what you like, and that's it.
But no, your ramblings and ravings are never ending, you're taking over this blog. You just feel an irresistible compulsion to do it.
I post a lot LESS OFTEN than you. A lot less.
And yet, I'm posting a lot more and, a lot longer comments, than I would like to, only because I feel that SOMETIMES your delusional rants need to be answered.
Most times, I just let them slide. If you didn't start arguments with me, if your posts were simply running in parallel with those of other fans, including mine, I assure you, I'd totally ignore you. I'd just feel sorry for you. But, when you provoke me, I answer.
It's still a waste of time. You guys, are a loony waste of time.
But keep preaching the right ways this team should follow. Keep telling the management and the coaching staff where they go wrong. Enlighten them.
And especially, keep repeating your favorite stupidities HUNDREDS of times. That's the only way you can function, and it's also the only way that makes you so repelling.
I’ll do my best to ignore you from now on (that’ll be a time saver), though , I can’t promise I always will.
Posted by: Sandy | Jun 9, 2014 5:57:38 PM
Derek Fischer is the NYC coach now . Teamed w Jackson who asked Melo to take a pay cut to bring in help , Look for Melo to get out of there . His ball hogging bs is over . He actually can pass the ball . He did it in the Olympics but doesn't trust most teamates . I liked him some w the Nuggets but as soon as he left , they won and the ball moved . The Cavs will get a coach who will change the culture . The East will return to prominence and will be much harder next yr . That's why Mj better get real . Cho has little clue . Bring in Deng who can salvage the sf situation . You can keep Mkg then and not have the backup struggle as much as he did as in Taylor . Now you have a solid rotation at the wings . Draft Payne to compliment Zeller . Bring in a vet pass first defending pt gd in back up . You may have a chance then . Try for Parsons or Afflalo in free agency . Leave the rest of the talked up guys alone . Bloggers here and on ROF clamored for Evan Turner . He would have Fared no better here . Faried maybe at pf . A guy Cho missed for Biz . Smh.
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 9, 2014 6:06:18 PM
Who is this "superstar" the Handout King is referencing?
Probably not a PG or a center.
Ideas? Does MKG lose his starting job?
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 9, 2014 6:14:40 PM
Iron Man. Faried was drafted 22. You better start calling some teams to let them know their GMs missed on him. Maybe that opens up some jobs for you? You can get out of the basement.
Posted by: Hank | Jun 9, 2014 6:36:34 PM
"Faried was drafted 22. You better start calling some teams to let them know their GMs missed on him."
Yeah but none of them had Cho the Great, he's supposed have the secret sauce....
....I'm sure there's some no shooting, no dribbling, no catching hot prospect out there right now that Cho-A-Pet has some serious designs on!
Y'all familiar with the Costanza Principle? Cho is like the perfect contrarian indicator, just do the opposite of what he advises.....
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 10, 2014 12:14:36 AM
Its kind of like going from 21 wins to 43. Almost the complete opposite of the previous year.
Posted by: Steve M. | Jun 10, 2014 12:54:51 AM
Yes. Do the opposite of Cho. So the opposite of 2 first round picks and cap space would be? Oh thats right where they were when he got here with almost no picks and no cap space.
Posted by: Hank | Jun 10, 2014 5:04:01 AM
Hank .. It's no answer that other Gms missed out . ESP since had they seriously worked Biz out , looked at whom he were playing against and how raw , young and undeveloped those kids were , they would have passed on him . There's no way had they put him in a full ct setting w nba players they coukd have missed that he had no hands , no coordination , was poor laterally and simply didnt know the game off bb , reminding them that his bb iq was low . Equally , it was reported and known at the time that for some reason , African players , the ones from Africa , had disportionately , poor hand eye coordination . Yinca Dare , Mutumbo and some others never developed any offense ever . There's 3 others I forget . Before anyone calls me out on this , I was shocked to read it and hold no opinion on the same . But See nbadraft.net or Draft Express which is where it was reported . So saying Cho gets a pass , is unfounded . There were the Morris twins too that came out that yr that are way better now and were better then . Mj said he saw the Dream in him . Mj must have been dreaming . Having said this , Biz wo the offense and average defense overall is better impactfully than Jefferson .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 10, 2014 8:15:55 AM
"Biz wo the offense and average defense overall is better impactfully than Jefferson."
We have a 2014 leader for dumbest overall comment. That one will be hard to beat folks. NASTAR has as an shot as usual. But he probably can't even get to this one. Iron Man is the odds on favorite to get the triple crown of moronic comments this year. Off to an incredible start!
Posted by: Dave | Jun 10, 2014 8:29:28 AM
Sandy .. Go right on a ignore my preachings . The problem is it's the truth , nothing but the truth and bb fundamentals . The same fundamentals that the Heat and the Spurs preach and follow . And a few other winning programs . It's lunacy to you bc you can't accept the bottom line when it comes to the preachings of bb fundamentals .. You can't get out the first round w Jefferson anywhere on the ct or Kemba managing the point . Period . They are too horrifically flawed . You can't argue w my posts substantively . You never do . All you do is vomit past accolades . But those accolades won't get you out the first round . And the demand to do so is coming faster than you think . At that time , the stark realization even to Cho is that we messed up rebuilding around these two . By then , it's too late and it will cost Cho his job . The idiot gave Kemba the keys . We told him it was foolish and saw what he didnt do against the Heat . Worse , he had a chance to fix it w Carter Williams , Lilliard and Lowry !!!! Yrs past . And now we can't get Exum or Smart . Or anyone else . He's a runt . The game has passed him by on both offense and defense . See the Heat series for starters . The wings missed shots . Experience and age will cute that . But not w Kemba bc it's the skillset to run the point to a playoff level ot gd that's missing . He's a brilliant sg . But you , Higgins , Mj and Cho can't see it yet . You will and so will they but it will be too late . If he gets a contract , this team is doomed . It's another setback for over 5 yrs .
Posted by: Iron man | Jun 10, 2014 8:36:24 AM
Rich Cho comes here with clear direction to rebuild the franchise. He takes us from 7 to 21 to 43 wins. And now the team has more options than they had when he arrived. Yet he doesn't know what he is doing? Sure. He could be 100% on all of his decisions since he showed up. But what GM has ever done that. Look at the results people and opportunities in front of this team. You can argue the methods, but surely not the results. And he brought me back to boot!Keep on Buzzing Rich and don't listen to the haters. No one thought I would be back, yet here I am!
Posted by: Hugo | Jun 10, 2014 10:33:30 AM
"So the opposite of 2 first round picks..."
I the hands of Cho-A-Pet draft picks have proven to be virtually worthless. In the hands of His Minimumness draft picks have proven to be a value destroyer.
"Rich Cho comes here with clear direction to rebuild the franchise. He takes us from 7 to 21 to 43 wins."
Absolute nonsense. Cho has no autonomy whatsoever, he's about 5th on the totem pole. Sure, he has a seat at the table and raises the average IQ at that table, but he ain't "running" anything. You slurpers keep forgetting he had 3 jobs in less than 12 months, the last one being with the laughingstock of NBA management groups (the Boobs) with a healthy pay cut. OKC declined to keep him, Portland fired him, and Air Min got him because he could do so on the cheap.
The Boobs 2013/14 record was artificially inflated due to a perfect storm of ineptitude and tanking in the East, if you slurpers are going to extrapolate based on what happened this past year you are in for a big disappointment.
Posted by: NASTAR99 | Jun 10, 2014 2:43:14 PM
sandy you just hate facts don't you.
it's not nitpicking when you're just flat out wrong.
you can't say that something is purely based on the individual if it includes half of the effing equation being team stats. which is exactly what i keep repeating. you're giving jefferson (and boozer and others) credit for being on great defensive players (their top 20 defensive ratings) when in reality they are horrible and have that stat because their team is great defensively and they themselves aren't guarding anybody (thus not being scored on much).
i'm not going to apologize for your complete ignorance on just about every topic. i'm not on here with negative comments all the time. when it's bad i comment that it's bad and when it's good i comment that it's good. your overly naive optimism just exposes your lack of unbiased judgement.
and suuuuuuuuuuper sensitive responses too. but seriously....you're not a smart person. you've made that much very clear.
take a breath. step back. look at yourself in the mirror. and remind yourself that you are arguing about al jefferson's defense being good.
Posted by: charlottean | Jun 13, 2014 4:47:48 PM
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